Which implementations do you like?

Basic "Synergy" Mechanic 66 48.89%
Synergy Item 38 28.15%
Synergy Item: Anti-Farm Version 24 17.78%
Synergy Mastery 48 35.56%
Synergy Runes 17 12.59%
Alternate Mastery 15 11.11%
Global Farm 30 22.22%
I have a radically different idea 23 17.04%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

A Different Kind of gp10 Item (and other Synergy ideas)

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CupcakeTrap

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07-15-2012

I find it a little surprising that people are voting for the Mastery option. Maybe because that's how we've been discussing it? Maybe because it "feels" like a Mastery?


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CupcakeTrap View Post
I find it a little surprising that people are voting for the Mastery option. Maybe because that's how we've been discussing it? Maybe because it "feels" like a Mastery?
something like this should be available from lvl 1 for duo lane partners, for the same reason they gave supports a gp10 mastery and runes.

so as a mastery or a starting item in the price range of 400 gold, it would probably be the best solution.

i like the item option more, since it would be more available for everyone. it wouldnt deny anyone the option of going offensive or tank with 9/21/0 or 21/9/0 in duo laning (and miss out at that one point to get more hp or armor/magic pen) or interfere with jungle mastery builds in case of duo jungling.


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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMelchorI View Post
something like this should be available from lvl 1 for duo lane partners, for the same reason they gave supports a gp10 mastery and runes.

so as a mastery or a starting item in the price range of 400 gold, it would probably be the best solution.

i like the item option more, since it would be more available for everyone. it wouldnt deny anyone the option of going offensive or tank with 9/21/0 or 21/9/0 in duo laning (and miss out at that one point to get more hp or armor/magic pen) or interfere with jungle mastery builds in case of duo jungling.
Why not just go basic mechanic?


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chumbler

Senior Member

07-15-2012

How about all of these ideas are stupid and people need to stop suggesting fixes to a "problem" that doesn't exist? The game shouldn't even have 4 sources of gold, it should just be 3. Deciding where and how to allocate gold is an interesting and important part of the game. Also these ideas only reinforce the meta.

I swear, most of the players in this game don't seem to understand that making players make decisions and tradeoffs is a good thing.


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ControlBlue

Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummibear View Post
I figured this would be a better place to put this than your main thread, as its related to how you would actually implement the system.

I like the idea of synergy as a whole, but there is currently a problem with item selection in general that I think prevents it from being as good of an idea as it could be. Namely, there is no real support stat other than CDR, which is fairly easy for supports to max on by a reasonable time even with 0 farm.

Currently, if you just implemented this, a lot of traditional supports would drastically change in playstyle, not just become a stronger version of their current selves. Basically, it's because AP isn't really a "supporty" stat; it only really scales the damage and healing parts of a support's kit. It won't give Janna more interrupts or buffs for allies. For players who actually enjoy playing traditional support, but in ways that aren't heavily focused on healbotting, you are kind of crippling the style.

So what do we need? Optimally, we could use some items like reverie, that really give you more support oomph in a teamfight.

1) Animal Transfiguration Device

25 AP
200 HP
10% CDR
15% Attack Speed
Unique Active: Transforms the target into a cute animal for 2 seconds, silencing them and making them unable to attack, as well as lowering their base movement speed by 30.
Amplifying Tome + Dagger + Kindlegem + 795g = 2500g

This item provides supports with a very desirable active, while making sure that any other role doesn't want it too badly. The stats are low enough for the price, and there are wasted stats for basically every role, so it isn't an efficient gold purchase. This means that only people who don't scale particularly well with other stats and really want the active would buy it. (The AS is to make sure mages don't get great value, and is nice for champs like Alistar and Taric. It could be something else, this is just an example.)

If we had more items like this, I would be very happy to see synergy implemented, as you could have a lot of variety botlane without really excluding more "traditional" supports from being awesome.
Actually there would be a way to make AP a support-y stat too.

By making the CC part of abilities like Janna's Zephyr scale with AP.

By making the damaging part of support abilities scale badly, and the support-y part of those abilities get better with AP (for example, the AP you've got the longer Janna's Zephyr slow could last), we can make support able to choose between AP and CDR and Mana, and not have to create another class of items reserved for support.

Just my two cents.


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Aylywyn

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Senior Member

07-16-2012

I posted this a while back: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1956929

But can't find where I simplified it... Maybe in a GD thread?

Ahh... Right here! http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...7#post22669107

Quote:
Going to Post this here, too, for the notice. The link is here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1972257, if discussion is supposed to go in that Fourm.

First, an expansion to the Assist Mechanic already used for Champions. As it stands, anyone who has damaged a Killed Champion in the last 10s, or used certain debuffs on them, or certain buffs on the Killer splits a pool of 58.33% of the Kill Value. Expand it to Minions and Monsters but make a few tweaks.

Assists on Minions and Monsters go to anyone that has damaged that Minion (only actual damage not buffs or debuffs) in the last 20 seconds. Those getting Assists split a pool worth 43.75% of the Kill Value.

Extending the time drops the difficulty which should shrink the reward but restricting it to actual damage raises the skill required a bit. It also increases the co-ordination required in a 0CS/Carry lane, making it less attractive and/or tougher to do.

Second, a set of Items, one AD Carry and one AP Carry.

[Name]Jackal's Kit(?)
800g
From: Long Sword+385g
+12 Attack Damage
+50 Hit Points
UNIQUE Passive: LOSE 2g per Kill if there is an Ally nearby. Allies within Sight GAIN 8g for each of.your Kills.
Sells for 400g.

[Name]Vulture's Kit(?)
800g
From: Amplifying Tome+365g
+20 Ablilty Power
+100 Mana
UNIQUE Passive: LOSE 2g per Kill if there is an Ally nearby. Allies within Sight GAIN 8g for each of your Kills.
Sells for 400g.

These should each have an Upgrade leaning to the mediocre to good fit and efficiency for the respective Carry along the lines or DFG or Randuin's for Kage's and HoG.


So, why? The Assist Mechanism adds 43.75% more Gold to a lane _with a co-ordinated lane partner_. This Gold is available only at the expense of a partner hitting a Minion. This is tough with a 0CS Support BUT two Carries could split 143.75% Gold for about 72% each. You now have to figure the trade-off between a 100%Carry/44%Support lane or a 72%Carry/72%Carry lane.

The Scavenging Items add 6g per Kill _for a pair in Sight Range of each other_ and potentially more in a triple lane/gank situation. This is roughly -10% to the owner and plus four times that to those nearby adding another 25-30% to a lane if an owner of this Item is getting all the Kills/Last Hits. With just this, this is a Ward to your Support every 10CS with 5g left over for them at a cost of 20g to yourself. A lane could be a ~90%Carry/~40%Support OR you could go with a lane of 120%Carry/120%Carry.

With both ideas implemented (at least NOT the Items alone...), the choice could become between a ~90%Carry/80%Support (of currently availble Gold) or a ~90%Carry/90%Carry (not accounting for the cost to Buy the Kit so a shade less) lane.

Just a quick brainstorm now Posted in order to have holes poked in it :-).


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Gummibear

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07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CupcakeTrap View Post
Your badge makes me anxious about counter-pointing this, but if I may: I think there ARE good items for Supports already. This comes up somewhat in the original Synergy thread, but I'll recap it here.

Items that might be viable buys on Supports already:
  • Auras: stats for teammates. Aegis is amazing.
  • DFG and other items with an active that works even without AP/AD
  • Survivability (allows them to keep throwing out their buffs/debuffs/CC/etc. longer)
  • CDR (as you've mentioned)

All that said, I agree that Riot could make up some more items geared especially toward Supports. I don't think waste-stats are necessary; just make the item appropriately expensive.
Haha, don't be intimidated by the badge. Honestly, if I could hide it I would, since my opinion is in no way validated or more important because of it.

Anyway, as to my counterpoints to that argument:

Auras are strong, but are problematic in a sense as a general fun factor (this isn't support specific). Auras factor in the the total stats applied to the team in their cost. While they are still gold efficient, the purchaser doesn't feel like they've gotten a significant upgrade, since a lot of the value of stats they've purchased go to other players. In addition, the players receiving the aura often have a hard time feeling an noticable stat increase (not to argue that they aren't extremely powerful, but just moreso that they aren't fun items to purchase). If the goal of introducing synergy is to increase how strong supports feel in a given game (since they are already quite powerful), this is rather counter-productive. A support with boots, reverie, locket, and 2 auras (still gonna need a slot for wards) isn't going to feel much stronger than the current support setup despite the fact that they have significantly more gold.

DFG, while being a powerful item, goes back to my earlier point that it's not a supporty item. As I said, your idea works rather excellently for (re?)introducing ideas such as support Pirate, support Ashe, support LB, etc., but it doesn't address the fact that supports have limited scaling they can get from the item shop already. The only reason a support would choose DFG over any other CDR item is for additional damage. It's still something I'd buy on certain champs (I could see Archangel's + DFG Sona being pretty beastly), but it would be when I was playing a pseudo-mage, and not a farmed support. It's nitpicky, but something I still feel is relevant.

Survivability is kind of the same thing. This setup is more or less just adding an additional tank to the team, as this is the role they play (disrupting while soaking damage). Just to reiterate, I don't want to sound like these items aren't things that could be bought or that your idea is not good. Synergy allows for teams to basically have a flex spot instead of a dedicated support spot for their 5th champ, but I want to make sure that said spot can be filled by a support in addition to the other 4 roles (Sorry for being repetitive, but I feel like if I explain it differently over and over, someone who isn't quite understand can get what I'm saying). For example, Janna probably won't get much out of building tank, since she shouldn't really be touched anyway in a given fight.

As for CDR, like I said, it's already fairly easy for supports to cap on that in a given game anyway (Reverie + boots + runes/masteries) should they want to. If you hand them an extra 30% (random number - not necessarily the value) gold in a game, that money isn't going to be going to CDR, it's going to be going to other stuff.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ControlBlue
Actually there would be a way to make AP a support-y stat too.

By making the CC part of abilities like Janna's Zephyr scale with AP.

By making the damaging part of support abilities scale badly, and the support-y part of those abilities get better with AP (for example, the AP you've got the longer Janna's Zephyr slow could last), we can make support able to choose between AP and CDR and Mana, and not have to create another class of items reserved for support.

Just my two cents.
Yep, this is another valid option, but one that isn't currently in the game. Riot could choose to implement this instead of introducing new items, but it would be a pretty big rework. If CC abilities AND damage scaled with AP on a champion's kit, they would have so much AP scaling that it might become a problem with how powerful the champion becomes. You'd have to not only look at items, but AP ratios on tons of champs across the board as well. Plus, I just prefer adding a few new items since buying items and having variable builds is always fun.

Another random idea for items could be introducing unique passives that supports want. I know Riot has a tendency to avoid this types of items (because they feel like they are tailored to specific champions and do extremely variable things from champ to champ), but something with a passive like, "Increases the duration of all buffs and debuffs applied by 20%," would be pretty cool for a lot of support champs (Nunu, Sona, etc.).


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ControlBlue

Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
How about all of these ideas are stupid and people need to stop suggesting fixes to a "problem" that doesn't exist? The game shouldn't even have 4 sources of gold, it should just be 3. Deciding where and how to allocate gold is an interesting and important part of the game. Also these ideas only reinforce the meta.

I swear, most of the players in this game don't seem to understand that making players make decisions and tradeoffs is a good thing.
Actually, the Synergy mechanic would actually offer more decision-making and more trade-off than the rather stale decision to have someone starve.

There isn't much interesting decision-making in noticing 5 - 4 = 1 aka 1 person has to go without a gold stream.

And you are wrong in thinking a Synergy mechanic would reinforce the meta, on the opposite it would be one of the most liberating thing ever as it would make something as crazy as trio-laning possible (maybe not viable but at least possible), you could go anywhere as long as you are okay with getting a little less gold (way better than starving), this would truly open a lot strategies.


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ControlBlue

Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummibear View Post

Yep, this is another valid option, but one that isn't currently in the game. Riot could choose to implement this instead of introducing new items, but it would be a pretty big rework. If CC abilities AND damage scaled with AP on a champion's kit, they would have so much AP scaling that it might become a problem with how powerful the champion becomes. You'd have to not only look at items, but AP ratios on tons of champs across the board as well. Plus, I just prefer adding a few new items since buying items and having variable builds is always fun.

Another random idea for items could be introducing unique passives that supports want. I know Riot has a tendency to avoid this types of items (because they feel like they are tailored to specific champions and do extremely variable things from champ to champ), but something with a passive like, "Increases the duration of all buffs and debuffs applied by 20%," would be pretty cool for a lot of support champs (Nunu, Sona, etc.).
Sorry for the double post, but it feels like the two subjects are different enough that they shouldn't be fused in the previous post.

I feel like the problem with just focusing on items is that it doesn't address the lack of identity the Support is suffering from right, problem that also make it one of the less desired role in the game. ADC get to revel in the damage they do, Tanks on the fact that they can't be killed, but Support as it is is only defined on its ability to starve well and ward.

Giving them some items with a bunch of actives and bad stats would not give them a defining feature. It would be another case of 'I can have the worst (instead of starving) and still be viable'. Also if someone wanted the active badly enough, they could take it and suddenly become a support too.

I do believe Supports should care about stats like everyone else, and everyone else should have access to interesting actives. I would be ok if Animal Transfiguration Device was picked by an AP because the active is what he needs right now. Supports should just be defined by there ability to sustain and actively enhancing their team.

Anyway, I agree it would need some work to make AP scale with support CCs and it could get ugly fast if the ratios are wrong (even though it could be mitigated by making sure Support don't have much damaging capabilities). Yet I do feel like reworking the couple (like maybe 12-15) support abilities that have a controlling component wouldn't be that much of a task. They would also just have to make sure the AP ratios for the damaging parts of the abilities scale really really badly.

I also agree that more items is always fun , however I think a higher priority right now is to give Support an identity and something to be proud of other than warding and zoning (which can be done by anyone else).

--- On Topic ---

Personally I would prefer Synergy being a Mastery in the middle of the Utility tree. As a mastery, it does a good job setting up what you plan to be/do on the battlefield, and it also differentiate Utility as the tree that define a support, someone who can profit from other succeeding, who has multiple tools at its disposal to affect the game in subtle ways (aka not through direct damage), that value movement speed, gold, CDR and overall utility, and someone who doesn't need or can't farm.

It would also give a reason for Tanks, AD or AP to get in the utility tree.


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Aylywyn

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Senior Member

07-16-2012

Another quick thing I just recalled,

Quote:
Passive: Eyes On The Prize
Gains 1 Eye for being within 800 of a Kill, 2 if closer than 400 or 3 for making the Kill regardless of distance, up to 12 Eyes are stored. Every 12(1st)/10(6th)/8(11th)/6(16th) Eyes are converted into a Marsh Ward as soon as space is available in Item Slots. Marsh Wards are Sight Wards but do not stack with them and cannot be sold. (In appearance, they are a PMM's weapon placed point-down, topped with the upper torso and head of a PCM wearing a crown of eyes glowing green, in PG-13 form, of course...)
The Passive from http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2070533. And a way to "free up" Gold going to Wards.