Which implementations do you like?

Basic "Synergy" Mechanic 66 48.89%
Synergy Item 38 28.15%
Synergy Item: Anti-Farm Version 24 17.78%
Synergy Mastery 48 35.56%
Synergy Runes 17 12.59%
Alternate Mastery 15 11.11%
Global Farm 30 22.22%
I have a radically different idea 23 17.04%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

A Different Kind of gp10 Item (and other Synergy ideas)

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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gummibear View Post
I figured this would be a better place to put this than your main thread, as its related to how you would actually implement the system.

I like the idea of synergy as a whole, but there is currently a problem with item selection in general that I think prevents it from being as good of an idea as it could be. Namely, there is no real support stat other than CDR, which is fairly easy for supports to max on by a reasonable time even with 0 farm.

Currently, if you just implemented this, a lot of traditional supports would drastically change in playstyle, not just become a stronger version of their current selves. Basically, it's because AP isn't really a "supporty" stat; it only really scales the damage and healing parts of a support's kit. It won't give Janna more interrupts or buffs for allies. For players who actually enjoy playing traditional support, but in ways that aren't heavily focused on healbotting, you are kind of crippling the style.

So what do we need? Optimally, we could use some items like reverie, that really give you more support oomph in a teamfight.

1) Animal Transfiguration Device

25 AP
200 HP
10% CDR
15% Attack Speed
Unique Active: Transforms the target into a cute animal for 2 seconds, silencing them and making them unable to attack, as well as lowering their base movement speed by 30.
Amplifying Tome + Dagger + Kindlegem + 795g = 2500g

This item provides supports with a very desirable active, while making sure that any other role doesn't want it too badly. The stats are low enough for the price, and there are wasted stats for basically every role, so it isn't an efficient gold purchase. This means that only people who don't scale particularly well with other stats and really want the active would buy it. (The AS is to make sure mages don't get great value, and is nice for champs like Alistar and Taric. It could be something else, this is just an example.)

If we had more items like this, I would be very happy to see synergy implemented, as you could have a lot of variety botlane without really excluding more "traditional" supports from being awesome.
Your badge makes me anxious about counter-pointing this, but if I may: I think there ARE good items for Supports already. This comes up somewhat in the original Synergy thread, but I'll recap it here.

Items that might be viable buys on Supports already:
  • Auras: stats for teammates. Aegis is amazing.
  • DFG and other items with an active that works even without AP/AD
  • Survivability (allows them to keep throwing out their buffs/debuffs/CC/etc. longer)
  • CDR (as you've mentioned)

All that said, I agree that Riot could make up some more items geared especially toward Supports. I don't think waste-stats are necessary; just make the item appropriately expensive.


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CupcakeTrap

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07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt516 View Post
SYNERGy MECHANIC WHERE?
I would giggle a lot if people started making threads with that title.


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Happyman4

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07-15-2012

Bump


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Reibert

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07-15-2012

My twist on the idea: How about a Mastery in the Utility tree where, if you damage a minion, you will get partial credit for it if it dies? Will add some kind of strategy in terms of balancing the lane's pushing and not just sitting there protecting your AD carry to last hit.


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doubleguac

Senior Member

07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by sephra View Post
another player who doesnt like supporting. but doesnt realize that supports impact on game is so huge.

same person = the same person who doesnt ever buy wards and oracles. or maybe does 1 ward every 10 mins lol
This is a big oversimplification. I think a lot of players understimate the importance of supports, especially in low level player. However, it is completely possible to recognize the huge impact that a support has on the game and still not enjoy playing them. I don't like playing AD carry; this doesn't mean that I think AD carries aren't important or influential, it's just a play-style a don't enjoy.

To go even further--I think there is a very obvious reason (one pointed out by the OP) that a lot of people don't like playing support. The current meta inevitably results in the support having the least money on the team at the end of a game. This doesn't mean they don't have an impact. However, the fact of the matter is that a lot of players enjoy buying items and building their champs. This is an aspect of the game that supports, in the current meta, aren't as able to participate in as much as are champs of other roles.

As a final note, the mechanic of last hitting, in and of itself, is something that some players enjoy participating in. I know I do, at least. It adds excitement to the early game, and gives players something constant to participate in and think about during the laning phase.

I guess I agree with the OP that a"synergy" mechanic could be a healthy one to implement for supports. I think an item would be a good place to place this mechanic. However, I think there would have to be various upgrades for such an item (kind of like for boots, another required item) that would support the the different roles different supports play. It's boring to have a required item for every champ of a certain class--one that does nothing contain a mechanic that would be absolutely fundamental to how that role is played. Maybe different upgrades for the synergy item could add CDR stats, or defensive stats, or an aura that buffs ad to nearby allies, or an active ability that could help nearby champs.

Another thing to consider is how a synergy item or mechanic would interact with existing gp5 and gp10 runes and items.


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Xarklyouss

Member

07-15-2012

Hey Cupcaketrap. Been lurking the original mastery thread for awhile (never commented. :P) and love the idea. Would love to see it implemented, and I figured I'd put my 2 cents in for once.

Like I said, 100% for the synergy mastery. I'd take the runes too, if riot decided it wouldn't fit well as a mastery. I'd like to comment on the "pigeon-holing" thing on the runes though. Supports are already kind of pigeon-holed into their rune choices outside of organized team play into the gp5 quints because they are the safe choice, so having another "safe choice" actually increases flexibility. You can't be sure that your lane partner as a support will be a good analog to your play style inside of solo queue, so having alternative rune set ups have a high potential to hurt your game performance in nearly all stages if you, say, rune for an aggressive support and your carry is more passive if you fail to communicate this at champ select. The lack of assists that you're looking to get delays your gp5 items and eventually your warding at some point in the game. Basically, if your carry is flopping, without gold runes you're both boned without kills or assists sans outside help, but with them at least you will have the gold to support them more heavily and better help them transition into their full potential better throughout the game. Gold quints are almost necessity inside of solo queue, which could be fixed with addition to the mastery, but think about this: With another gold quint option, you could have these gold making options for two potential, broad types of support. A lane support working more often off of the synergy runes and a roaming support working more often with the gp5 runes (Not gonna get into movement speed runes. :P). Not arguing for or against one or the other, just thinking either one would work as an excellent option.

As for the first tier utility mastery and the global farm ideas, these sound highly abuseable and potentially anti-fun to me. The global farm idea, mostly, because there's very little potential counterplay available to opposing solo lanes. Yes, there is a hit to the gold of everyone by outplaying someone to the point of being able to begin denying a lane, but it won't be as big in the sense of the "1v1" lanes, chiefly top, as it is now. You're not rewarded as well as you would be for dominating someone hard in this scenario because your opponent is still making money even though they're nowhere near the creeps, which would be less fun for someone doing very well. The utility mastery may also be a problem, because this may be something that's abuseable by non-supports. Mostly because since you don't have to worry about last hitting anymore, you can focus all of your efforts into trying to deny your lane opponent in a solo lane while they still have to be concerned with last hitting. The opposing lane will inevitably always be pushed because you're not doing jack to the minions, keeping it on your side and making it less dangerous for someone to just block them from the creeps because ganking is made really difficult. Arguably, this would be well worth a 20% hit in overall gold to starve an opposing lane for only 1 point into a different tree.

The synergy items appear fine to me, initially. Another potentially nice option. ^_^ Don't think the anti-farm one is necessary though, if it's literally the ONLY function of the item. Unless we're talking ARAM, but that's entirely different.

I feel like global and innate synergy would be strange, but I can't think of a reason against it. I dunno, maybe I just wanna see some reason to go deep into utility again like before the mastery remakes. Utility is in desperate need of something useful in the deep tiers. :/


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Critmaster Garen

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07-15-2012

i like the idea of a synergy mastery at the beginning of the utility tree (available for everyone) or as an item.

this would easily be more balanced than gp10 items,

since it would only work in duo laning, meaning that it was an additional gold stream, that wouldnt be available to solo lane carries.

it would completely shake up the meta, since triple lanes and duo jungling would actually become viable. this item should also increase the xp gain off allied minion kills.


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CupcakeTrap

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07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleguac View Post
Another thing to consider is how a synergy item or mechanic would interact with existing gp5 and gp10 runes and items.
I have tried to assist with this by including those graphs.

At the risk of oversimplifying:

(1) There's no danger of Synergy + gp10 Runes/Masteries/items making Supports "too rich" (whatever that would mean). gp10 RMi doesn't put them anywhere close to what the other 4 get from farming.

(2) Farm is a big early-game gold infusion. Synergy would also be an early-game infusion. gp10 items are actually an early-game drain on available gold. The power of farm is hitting teamfight phase with some core items. gp10 just can't give you that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xarklyouss View Post
Hey Cupcaketrap. Been lurking the original mastery thread for awhile (never commented. :P) and love the idea. Would love to see it implemented, and I figured I'd put my 2 cents in for once.

Like I said, 100% for the synergy mastery. I'd take the runes too, if riot decided it wouldn't fit well as a mastery. I'd like to comment on the "pigeon-holing" thing on the runes though. Supports are already kind of pigeon-holed into their rune choices outside of organized team play into the gp5 quints because they are the safe choice, so having another "safe choice" actually increases flexibility. You can't be sure that your lane partner as a support will be a good analog to your play style inside of solo queue, so having alternative rune set ups have a high potential to hurt your game performance in nearly all stages if you, say, rune for an aggressive support and your carry is more passive if you fail to communicate this at champ select. The lack of assists that you're looking to get delays your gp5 items and eventually your warding at some point in the game. Basically, if your carry is flopping, without gold runes you're both boned without kills or assists sans outside help, but with them at least you will have the gold to support them more heavily and better help them transition into their full potential better throughout the game. Gold quints are almost necessity inside of solo queue, which could be fixed with addition to the mastery, but think about this: With another gold quint option, you could have these gold making options for two potential, broad types of support. A lane support working more often off of the synergy runes and a roaming support working more often with the gp5 runes (Not gonna get into movement speed runes. :P). Not arguing for or against one or the other, just thinking either one would work as an excellent option.
Thanks for the Support support! ^^

As I've mentioned earlier in this post, I don't think gp10 Quints and Synergy Quints would ever really be alternative options. The magnitudes are just totally different. And they kind of have to be: if you made 10gp10 Quints, everyone would take them, because they stack with last-hitting (Farming). Synergy doesn't stack with Farming, so it's only useful if you aren't taking minions.


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CloudCarry

Senior Member

07-15-2012

how about you leave the game how it is.. if you make farming any different at all you will kill the game


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Critmaster Garen

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07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyMouth View Post
how about you leave the game how it is.. if you make farming any different at all you will kill the game
if you mean make it more enjoyable for everyone and more diverse, by "killing", then youre right.