Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


[Guide] AP Poppy -- AKA "The fine art of carbonizing Ashe"

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lokan

Senior Member

11-12-2010

Good guide.

I quite strongly disagree, however, with the early Sheen. Your DFG costs only twice as much, and deals over 5 times the burst damage of Sheen- getting the DFG 1260 gold earlier is immense and can almost guarantee you a kill or two if played right.

If you need more of an immediate, early game boost just get a couple of the (extremely helpful) components of the DFG (Kage's pick is notable for helping you get the rest of the DFG much more quickly) -- or upgrade your boots to Sorc Shoes. The extra mana pen won't give you quite as much damage as the Sheen would have, but it costs much less and the movespeed is invaluable.

EDIT: Also, there's not really any point with starting with a Doran's Ring just because you're going AP. Because you should be using the Utilities mastery line anyways (You really want the movespeed and buff duration bonuses) you should also have Meditation maxed and have no further need for mana regen- unless you would like to use runes as well (I do). The small AP bonus it gives isn't enough to provide anything close to a noticable difference to your damage in any case.

You are much better served with a Doran's Shield to give you a lot of extra staying power in the lane, plus the ability to make a shallow tower dive if you need to in order to get an early kill in the lane.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

turtlejay

Recruiter

11-12-2010

Quote:
Lokan:
Good guide.

I quite strongly disagree, however, with the early Sheen. Your DFG costs only twice as much, and deals over 5 times the burst damage of Sheen- getting the DFG 1260 gold earlier is immense and can almost guarantee you a kill or two if played right.

If you need more of an immediate, early game boost just get a couple of the (extremely helpful) components of the DFG (Kage's pick is notable for helping you get the rest of the DFG much more quickly) -- or upgrade your boots to Sorc Shoes. The extra mana pen won't give you quite as much damage as the Sheen would have, but it costs much less and the movespeed is invaluable.

EDIT: Also, there's not really any point with starting with a Doran's Ring just because you're going AP. Because you should be using the Utilities mastery line anyways (You really want the movespeed and buff duration bonuses) you should also have Meditation maxed and have no further need for mana regen- unless you would like to use runes as well (I do). The small AP bonus it gives isn't enough to provide anything close to a noticable difference to your damage in any case.

You are much better served with a Doran's Shield to give you a lot of extra staying power in the lane, plus the ability to make a shallow tower dive if you need to in order to get an early kill in the lane.


A shallow tower dive? with what, 3 hp regen per 5? You're mad. Doran's Ring is nice because with her Q resetting her autoattack, I find myself spamming it a ton to farm. Especially close to 6th, it's nice to push them to the tower and the false sense of security. . .it makes that first kill with your ult so delicious.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lokan

Senior Member

11-12-2010

Quote:
turtlejay:
A shallow tower dive? with what, 3 hp regen per 5?

It's 8hp/5.

And yes. It's very possible to get a kill at levels 2-4ish if you have a good lanemate with some balls and if one of the enemies is a bit squishy. The extra 100-odd HP and 8 armor from Doran's Shield is nothing to sneeze at- letting you take an extra tower hit if you need to chase them a bit to get off an extra autoattack+ignite.
Whether or not you do that, however, Poppy is extremely dependent on her farm, and the only way to get it is to stay in the lane- which tends to be quite difficult because Poppy has a giant target painted on her back that says "HARASS ME!" Because you can't really afford the mastery points to get SoS (9-0-21 is far superior), Doran's Shield is really the only source of health regen you are going to have all game, and is very necessary to be able to stay in the field to get your quick DFG, and out of the fountain.

Quote:
turtlejay:
You're mad.

Yep. I think you have to be a bit tweaked in the head to play Poppy the way she's meant to be played.

Quote:
turtlejay:
Doran's Ring is nice because with her Q resetting her autoattack, I find myself spamming it a ton to farm. Especially close to 6th, it's nice to push them to the tower and the false sense of security. . .it makes that first kill with your ult so delicious.

Yes, it does. As I said, however, Meditation + mana regen/5/level runes will more than cover all of your mana needs- and you can grab the meki pendant component of your DFG before Kage's Pick if you for some reason waste all your mana constantly and are desperate.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

turtlejay

Recruiter

11-12-2010

I figured out what was bugging me about this guide. . .

I've been sitting here at work trying to figure out why my gut tells me that your goal of getting Deathfire Grasp first (before Lichbane) is a bad idea. You say that it will be much of your DPS, and relate it to Poppy's Q attack.

The Q is on like a 2 or 3 second CD at max level, Deathfire grasp wishes it's CD was that low. You can be constantly proc'ing your Sheen damage at mid to high levels, which is an insane damage boost. I think I'll stick to rushing Lichbane over DFG.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lokan

Senior Member

11-12-2010

Uh, you won't get that many hits off with Sheen because the enemy carry will be running away. And then you'll be dead.

DFG doesn't help your DPS a lot, but the burst is insane. Your goal as Poppy isn't to kill the whole enemy team- it's to instantly disintegrate the enemy carry and then gtfo.

Ult -> DFG -> Q -> Body slam -> Q -> death (or ignite)

Lich Bane is a great item, but it doesn't really help you until lategame after you already have your DFG and Void Staff.


I just repeatedly raped Psyonic Reaver on his stream with AP Poppy, good times =D


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Derrick the Red

Senior Member

11-13-2010

Thanks for this guide. Poppy was my first serious, and still is my main, champion, so I am constantly reading up on ways to make her better. My build is similar to yours except that I have lately been substituting in a Nashor's Tooth after Sheen instead of DFG. Crazy, I know, but Nashor's cuts cooldowns and I never remember to use DFG. Also, I try to get a Glacial Shroud in there after Nashor's tooth. The result: cooldown cut by 50%. I am still only level 15, so I do not have the benefits of runes; however, when I get Sheen (25 AP), Nashor (55AP, 25% cooldown reduct.), Glacial Shroud (25% cooldown reduct., 45 armor), Void staff, and Sorc. shoes, then I figure I am pretty scary and good at bursting.

By end game, my AP is up somewhere over 100 and my DB cooldown is 2 secs. I have become very effective at killing, but mainly I am just a killing assistant and turret-dive-from-the-back-to-kill-ashe-annie-rhyze-or-some-other-caster champion. I would appreciate any comment on my use of my build:

Sheen
Boots 1
Nashor's
Void Staff
Glacial Shroud
Sorcerer's Boots

If I have time, I will do other things, but this is my core.

Thanks!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

foshokku

Junior Member

11-13-2010

I've been trying tweaking this build a little more here and there with the addition of Lichbane (and maybe Gunblade, but I'm always wary about it for some reason), but I'm confused about something.

Sheen gives you 100% over your base damage, right? So that means your Devastating Blow will get its bonus from your AD (which for me is always near 100 and something with the AP build) instead of the bonus from the skill itself?
Based on that, Lichbane, which takes its bonus from your base AP, will grant you a whole lot more damage than Sheen, right?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Destabilizator

Recruiter

11-14-2010

Quote:
Derrick the Red:
Thanks for this guide. Poppy was my first serious, and still is my main, champion, so I am constantly reading up on ways to make her better. My build is similar to yours except that I have lately been substituting in a Nashor's Tooth after Sheen instead of DFG. Crazy, I know, but Nashor's cuts cooldowns and I never remember to use DFG. Also, I try to get a Glacial Shroud in there after Nashor's tooth. The result: cooldown cut by 50%. I am still only level 15, so I do not have the benefits of runes; however, when I get Sheen (25 AP), Nashor (55AP, 25% cooldown reduct.), Glacial Shroud (25% cooldown reduct., 45 armor), Void staff, and Sorc. shoes, then I figure I am pretty scary and good at bursting.

By end game, my AP is up somewhere over 100 and my DB cooldown is 2 secs. I have become very effective at killing, but mainly I am just a killing assistant and turret-dive-from-the-back-to-kill-ashe-annie-rhyze-or-some-other-caster champion. I would appreciate any comment on my use of my build:

Sheen
Boots 1
Nashor's
Void Staff
Glacial Shroud
Sorcerer's Boots

If I have time, I will do other things, but this is my core.

Thanks!

CDR cap is 40%, max DB CD is 2,4s afaik.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dunkelzahn

Senior Member

11-14-2010

Whoa, questions and such ahoy! I've been relegated to university computers for the past week or so (the video card in my computer decided it'd be a good idea to buy the farm), so I haven't been able to read a whole lot or play. Let's see how to respond to the various issues raised.

Quote:
Lokan:
Good guide.

I quite strongly disagree, however, with the early Sheen. Your DFG costs only twice as much, and deals over 5 times the burst damage of Sheen- getting the DFG 1260 gold earlier is immense and can almost guarantee you a kill or two if played right.


I like the early Sheen because it's (relatively) cheap and gives you just about everything you need. I will admit that I've never tried rushing DFG straight up, so I can't speak for how good or bad that is. I'll try it once I get my video card.

Quote:
EDIT: Also, there's not really any point with starting with a Doran's Ring just because you're going AP. Because you should be using the Utilities mastery line anyways (You really want the movespeed and buff duration bonuses) you should also have Meditation maxed and have no further need for mana regen- unless you would like to use runes as well (I do). The small AP bonus it gives isn't enough to provide anything close to a noticable difference to your damage in any case.


With Doran's Ring, DFG, Sheen and Archmage's Savvy, your DFG starts out with an extra 3.5% of their health in damage since you've just cleared the first 100 AP hump. That's a pretty noticeable difference from my experience, especially since AP Poppy is an all-or-nothing deal of sorts.

My philosophy on Poppy is that you have six seconds to be useful, so you want to be able to do as much damage as possible. Mid-game, the extra 3.5% damage on DFG is great, and early game, with how easily Poppy is harassed, it seems to me that the Doran's Shield won't do too much to help your case when you're the worst farmer in the game to begin with.

Quote:
turtlejay:
I figured out what was bugging me about this guide. . .

I've been sitting here at work trying to figure out why my gut tells me that your goal of getting Deathfire Grasp first (before Lichbane) is a bad idea. You say that it will be much of your DPS, and relate it to Poppy's Q attack.

The Q is on like a 2 or 3 second CD at max level, Deathfire grasp wishes it's CD was that low. You can be constantly proc'ing your Sheen damage at mid to high levels, which is an insane damage boost. I think I'll stick to rushing Lichbane over DFG.


Poppy also wishes she wasn't totally dependent on Diplomatic Immunity to do her damage. DFG + AP ensures that in the six seconds that your ult is on somebody, you'll do something useful like erasing them from existence. DFG + one charge + one Devastating Blow will murder anyone you throw it at (unless they're a tank), so in those six seconds, you've contributed a lot. With Lichbane over DFG, you're not totally assured that the enemy won't just blind you and kite you until your ult goes down.

Without D.I., Poppy's too squishy and relatively easy to be kited unlike an Olaf or Xin Zhao. With D.I., the other team goes from confident to "oh my christ i can't taunt her off of ashe--who's ashe, i suddenly don't remember who she is because she's never existed".

Quote:
Derrick the Red:
The result: cooldown cut by 50%. I am still only level 15, so I do not have the benefits of runes; however, when I get Sheen (25 AP), Nashor (55AP, 25% cooldown reduct.), Glacial Shroud (25% cooldown reduct., 45 armor), Void staff, and Sorc. shoes, then I figure I am pretty scary and good at bursting.


CDR goes up to 40%. You won't need to load up on a lot of it (especially since you'll have runes and masteries soon).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lokan

Senior Member

11-14-2010

Quote:
Dunkelzahn:
I like the early Sheen because it's (relatively) cheap and gives you just about everything you need. I will admit that I've never tried rushing DFG straight up, so I can't speak for how good or bad that is. I'll try it once I get my video card.

Sheen isn't bad, but I would say the DFG gives poppy even more of everything she needs with 10 mana regen, 60 AP, and 15% reduced cooldowns (!). I consider Sheen just sort of a distraction-- like getting 3 Doran's Blades on Twitch. It's not awful, but it won't help you for very long and it doesn't really build into anything. Lich Bane is not useful until after you have


Quote:
Dunkelzahn:
With Doran's Ring, DFG, Sheen and Archmage's Savvy, your DFG starts out with an extra 3.5% of their health in damage since you've just cleared the first 100 AP hump. That's a pretty noticeable difference from my experience, especially since AP Poppy is an all-or-nothing deal of sorts.

The DFG alone provides 60 AP, and because I do not take the needless detour of getting Sheen- I can immediately start on my Void Staff- the Blasting Wand component for which costs 400 less than Sheen and still sends me over the 100AP breakpoint. So not only can I get the 100% initial damage from DFG much faster (multiplying my usefulness early game, netting me more kills, snowballing me for lategame), I can also get that extra 3.5% you covet a bit quicker. :P

Quote:
Dunkelzahn:
My philosophy on Poppy is that you have six seconds to be useful, so you want to be able to do as much damage as possible. Mid-game, the extra 3.5% damage on DFG is great, and early game, with how easily Poppy is harassed, it seems to me that the Doran's Shield won't do too much to help your case when you're the worst farmer in the game to begin with.

If not the worst, Poppy is certainly one of the worst farmers in the game, yes. The Doran's Shield helps mitigate that by letting you actually stick around and get some last hits (or a kill!) against a lane that would otherwise instantly harass you out. Because she is a melee hero and so vulnerable early game, she extremely desperately needs the health regen, as well as the survivability. The longer you can stay in the lane and the more last hits you can afford to get in the first few minutes, the sooner you can have that DFG and begin reducing Ashe to a small pile of, well, ash.
If you can't stay in the lane with Doran's Ring, it won't help you at all because there is no chance of you getting a kill. If you can stay in the lane, your chances of getting a kill would be as good or better with a Doran's Shield instead of Ring. (from the extra survivability, and the additional health you have from regen vs the Ring) So really, there is no situation in which the Ring helps you more than the Shield.

I hope that helps clarify my position to you

tl;dr version:

Doran's Ring: Unnecessary. AP bonus is irrelevant, mana regen is redundant, and you really need Doran's Shield.
Doran's Shield: Health Regen. Health bonus. Armor. You need this get the fast DFG to vaporize Ashe.
Sheen: Good but not great. DFG is much, much better (Hell, even the components of DFG are better) and is therefore much more urgent. Nothing wrong with just getting a few components of DFG on your first trip back if you cannot afford the whole thing- they will still help a lot.
DFG: Every single bonus from this item suits Poppy perfectly. There is no reason not to get it as soon as possible, ever.