Mechanic: Burn

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idrum4all2see

Junior Member

07-13-2012

I have been playing league of legends for about two years now. As each new champion is released I've come to notice we've fallen into a horrible slump as players with the current North American Meta.
You have a bruiser in Top lane, Mage in Mid, some sort of off tanky bruiser or mage in jungle and Ranged carry with support in bottom lane.
This is stale and boring, why not mix up the meta a bit. My suggestion:
Burns
Not just Mana Burn, but energy burn and rage burn as well.

I have read up on many of the arguments that people make about what mana burn used to do on wits end. And I'm prepared to make multiple rebuttals and try to prove why adding a burn effect would not only allow for better counterpicks, but would also allow you to shift the meta, so that it's not so robotic and stale.

Quote:
Argument 1: Champions like Rammus would be shut down by Mana Burn because of his low Mana Pool.
I understand where you're coming from. I remember watching videos of the days of old when people would auto attack Rammus and he would be OOM, then just be killed.
Rebuttal: Burn would be used for laning.
Keep in mind I am by no means suggesting an Item. That was a bad idea, stacking attack speed made Mana Burn destroy rammus. I'm saying give a character a burn ability as a utility. It costs them extra mana every time they used it, the way kog's ult does, and allow them to burn an enemies rescource.
Quote:
Argument 2: Champions with no rescourse would counter this champion.
You're darn right they would. You can't release a champion that doesn't have a counter, that would just be insane *Cough* Yorick *Cough*, but there has to be a way to counter a champion, at least one, if it be an item or mechanic.
Rebuttal: I'm not disagreeing.
I'm simply saying the way to counter this champion would be to put Garen or Katarina against him or her. (The same way you can throw Galio or Talon mid to counter Morganna.)
Quote:
Argument 3: How would it work for champions who do not use mana?
Well, if you think about it for a moment, it would work perfectly. Champions that have some sort of a resource can have it burned.
Rebuttal: IF I must, I'll list them off, prepare yourself.
Tryndamere: Reduces his rage bar
Rumble: Reduces Heat.
Renekton: Reduces Rage.
Akali/Shen/Kennen: Reduces Energy

But How would the numbers crunch?
All of those champions have a base of 100. (Not counting those dastardly energy runes) so percentage based burn. It will work for champs with HUGE mana pools, and for champs with tiny Mana pools.
Quote:
Argument 4: Its a "No Fun" Skill.
Okay, so, I have a few things to say about this, and by a few I mean a lot. I do not mean to offend anybody by saying this, Riot employees included, but allow me:
Rebuttal: That is just dumb.
Come on, there are PLENTY of things in League that are "No Fun" mechanics. Blinds on ranged carries. Perfect counter, you can't auto attack, literally worthless. Silence, need I say more? Taunt. How many champions have a Taunt, like 3. One is a channeled Ulti, the other are Utility spells. If we're going by things that are going to ruin the Fun of the game we may as well throw CC out the window. Seriously. Its fun for you when you land a light binding, but the champion caught in it, not so much.
Quote:
Argument 5: Silence is a better version of any form of Burn.
I'm not disagreeing. Silence as its own CC is very useful. Heck, its one of the two ways of stopping Katarina in her Ult. But Burn would have its place, a different place. Silence would be it's own mechanic, the way Snare and Stun are similar, yet different.
Rebuttal: Burn would be more reliant on game changing play, compared to silence.
For example. You pick Morganna to go mid, Sweet! The enemy picks Kassadin. He can just silence you for days with free harass. But the silence has a decent cooldown. The Burn mechanic would have a low cooldown, but stacking mana costs. (See Argument/Rebuttal 1) The point of Burn is the constant fear that you could be burned to no mana at any time. That You have to be cautious about your spells, compared to knowing that once you get silenced you get bursted, then you have a chance to burst back. The way that you are in constant fear from a Shaco gank.
I trust that you, the League community, will be able to come up with many more Arguments as to why a Burn system wouldn't work. And I would love more than anything to hear those arguments. Please feel free to comment, just be positive. Don't act like a jerk and just say the concept is dumb. I'm looking for actual feedback here.
Thank you.


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Shadowmender

Senior Member

07-14-2012

As a spell, it is a good mechanic. As an item (as you mentioned) not so much...or maybe they were looking at it wrong. Maybe it could be an item similar to gunblade, except, it builds off of tear and the chalace thing. Returns mana on hit, and can be expelled to burn say, 8-10% of their current mana.
It works in the same way as a spell would, but takes no resource on the uses (but places it on a long CD of course). The problem with the old burn item was the on-hit effect and the fact that it was a flat amount (doesn't scale well)


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Methamphetamind

Member

07-14-2012

I've thought the game needed this for a while. Would it reduce shyvana's rage? Because that would make any char with burn hard counter her ulti in many ways.

With tweaking it would be good though, mumu can get to the point where he is untouchable til he's oom, along with a few other champs. Also, clutch burns on akali to stop her twilight shrouding. I do like it.


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Cryypter

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Senior Member

07-14-2012

I believe a Red posted a better explanation of this, but the main issue with mana burn is that it completely shuts down ability based champs (Read: Anyone but AA Carrys) for an extended duration. It's the equivalent of having a really long silence. With some mana regen itemization, it takes about 10 seconds for someone at empty to regen enough mana for 1 spell. No matter what the champ, a 10 second silence would be imbalanced. Mana burn would be the equivalent of a 10 second silence every time the enemy cast a spell, since it would deplete their mana again.


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Blink1993

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Senior Member

07-14-2012

i think mana burn is a great idea, they used to have it on the item "wits end" but they removed it. it used to removed i think 40 mana and deal 40 damage to them. now it just does the damage and gives u MR ( as if that was a fair compensation to mana burn)

but that was the only way to drain mana...

i wish they would make a mesmer champion like in guildwars, they were sort of like the opposite of a support champion. they didnt deal too much damage, they didnt have that much health. all they did was cause the other team to be pissed off and lose mana and they could disable your spells. i think if a champ had an ult that had no cost and transfered 20%/30%/40% of the target enemys mana to them and dealt like .5 damage per mana stolen, then that would seem fair to me. maybe dealing around 250 minumum to remove the chances of it being useless on a non mana champ. i may write up a champ concept tonight about this idea.


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InfernoReversal

Senior Member

07-14-2012

Quote:
Argument 3: How would it work for champions who do not use mana?
Well, if you think about it for a moment, it would work perfectly. Champions that have some sort of a resource can have it burned.
Rebuttal: IF I must, I'll list them off, prepare yourself.
Tryndamere: Reduces his rage bar
Rumble: Reduces Heat.
Renekton: Reduces Rage.
Akali/Shen/Kennen: Reduces Energy
Wouldn't reducing Rumble's heat be a good thing? XD

List of Champions that use HP or no resource
Dr. Mundo
Garen
Riven
Katarina
Vladimir

Also, Burn would be extremely hard to balance

Energy reliant champions have the optiuon of restoring their energy through a skill. (e.g. Akali's Q, Lee Sin's Passive). If they are unable to use skills due to the lack of energy, their use will fall off much quicker than one with mana.

Rage reliant champions will be extremely hard to balance. Tryndamere's rage is much easier to obtain than Shyvana's or Renekton's.

Shield reliant champion, Mordekaiser, would be extremely pissed off, lol. (Not really a balancing problem though.)


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idrum4all2see

Junior Member

07-14-2012

Quote:
it completely shuts down ability based champs (Read: Anyone but AA Carrys) for an extended duration. It's the equivalent of having a really long silence. With some mana regen itemization, it takes about 10 seconds for someone at empty to regen enough mana for 1 spell. No matter what the champ, a 10 second silence would be imbalanced. Mana burn would be the equivalent of a 10 second silence every time the enemy cast a spell, since it would deplete their mana again.
I get you, that does make sense. But this isn't silence, it is its own caliber of CC, the way snare and stun are.
Burn would not be used to drain someones mana 100%. The mechanic would create a new type of fear in the game, forcing champions to get more mana pots, or mana items. That would delay and offset their main build.
The mechanic would have stacking mana costs on the user, making the payoff very low, and the spam time have a short 4 or 5 second cooldown on the stacking.
Kind of the way Kog Maw's ulti works.

Quote:
Wouldn't reducing Rumble's heat be a good thing? XD
Yep. You're right. But the point of the burn is to burn. Unless for rumble only it gave heat :P

Quote:
Energy reliant champions have the optiuon of restoring their energy through a skill. (e.g. Akali's Q, Lee Sin's Passive). If they are unable to use skills due to the lack of energy, their use will fall off much quicker than one with mana.
They would fall off quicker. Which would be nice.
Please, if you could, list counters to Lee Sin, Akali and Kennen. (I know there are a few for Akali, but Kennen has almost virtually none, and same with Lee.
Quote:
Rage reliant champions will be extremely hard to balance. Tryndamere's rage is much easier to obtain than Shyvana's or Renekton's.
And Tryndamere without rage = Less Crit, Less healing, easier to deal with in lane.
Shyvanna without rage ults less often. But she buys wits end anyways (Most the time that is) giving her a good attack speed boost. The champ leaves the lane and Shyv can get a full bar.
(Considering her Ult does Magic damage, it's really only used for the knockback.)
And! (The burn mechanic would only be good during lane phase. It would be useless in a 15 sewcond team fight. But when a one CS difference early game could mean a new item or not, Burn would help you get the lead early, and stay in the lead.)

Thank you all for the responses.
Remember I'm not trying to pick fights. I enjoy hearing reach individual take on the matter, and I'm just trying to take a stand for Burn.
It would be something that would take time to balance.
But when was the last time Riot introduced a new Mechanic? :P


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Cryypter

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Senior Member

07-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by idrum4all2see View Post
I get you, that does make sense. But this isn't silence, it is its own caliber of CC, the way snare and stun are.
Burn would not be used to drain someones mana 100%. The mechanic would create a new type of fear in the game, forcing champions to get more mana pots, or mana items. That would delay and offset their main build.
The mechanic would have stacking mana costs on the user, making the payoff very low, and the spam time have a short 4 or 5 second cooldown on the stacking.
Kind of the way Kog Maw's ulti works.
But that's kind of the problem: unless it burns them down to zero, it would basically be useless. There are a couple scenarios I foresee:

- Low flat burn (a la old Wit's End): only champs with low mana pools (e.g. tanks) would be affected, meaning they would have to choose between being tanky or being able to use abilities.

- High flat burn: now causes the same issues with high mana champs (e.g. mages, supports), and now completely shuts down tanks, since they would have to build full mana builds and lose all tankiness.

- Low % burn: would have no effective counter except regen, meaning everyone would have to build some regen and then could ignore the burn.

High % burn: would require complete reworks of builds to itemize specifically for mana regen.

Regardless of the situation, the only results are either they don't lose all their mana, in which case the burn does nothing, or they do lose all their mana, in which case they can do nothing. It's a very high frustration-low reward mechanic. Because you have to whittle away at their mana pool, you can't do any clutch actions, which is why they reworked sustain and don't have any Heal-over-Time spells.


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idrum4all2see

Junior Member

07-14-2012

Quote:
- Low flat burn (a la old Wit's End): only champs with low mana pools (e.g. tanks) would be affected, meaning they would have to choose between being tanky or being able to use abilities.

- High flat burn: now causes the same issues with high mana champs (e.g. mages, supports), and now completely shuts down tanks, since they would have to build full mana builds and lose all tankiness.
I agree. Flat burn would be a horrible idea. They tried it on wits end, and it was a bad idea.

Quote:
- Low % burn: would have no effective counter except regen, meaning everyone would have to build some regen and then could ignore the burn.

High % burn: would require complete reworks of builds to itemize specifically for mana regen
I really hate doing math, but I guess you're asking me to, right?
Okay, here is the Scenario:
You're playing the Mana Burn Champion. It is their Q.
You're laning against Morgana.
At first level Morgana takes her Q, Dark Binding.
She throws it and misses. It cost her 60 mana, out of her base of 240 (No Mana Runes).
Morgana is now at 180 Mana out of 240.
You now have 11 Seconds (No Cooldown runes) To mana burn her.
Let's throw numbers on the burn, shall we?

First level the burn does 5% of their maximum mana, and an additional 1% stacking.
It costs the user a flat amount of mana, and 1% of their mana stacking each time it is cast."
The Mana burn itself can be cast every two seconds. So we can cast it 5 times before her dark binding is back up.

We're about to get in depth here.
The first time it is used it burns 5% of Morganas Mana, which at its current state is 180. It burns 9 Mana.
The caster takes a flat amount of mana to cast it, no stacking percents yet.
Next he casts it again, on the 3rd second of the 11 that morgana cannot cast her dark binding.
It does 5% +1% stack, so 6% of 171 (We just burned 9). Which would be 10 (rounded.)
That brings our total to 20 mana burned.
The caster takes another flat cost, plus 1% of his max mana to burn theirs.
3rd cast on the 5th second:
Does 6% + 1%, so 7% of 161, which is 11.
Bringing her current mana down to 150.
Now, on the 5th second her mana regen kicks in. At base it is 6.8, so that brings her up to 157 mana (rounded)
The caster takes another flat amount of mana and 2% of their max mana.
4th cast on the 7th Second:
8% of 157 is 13 mana. Bringing her down to 144.
Caster takes another flat +3%
5th cast on 9th second. (Last cast before dark binding comes back up.)
9% of 144 is 13 mana. Bringing her down to 131 mana.
She regens the next second, then dark binding is back. Bringing her mana pool to 138.
When she started after dark binding it was 180.
We burned a total (After regen) of 42 mana over 11 seconds. Dark binding costs 60 mana.
If morgana were to throw dark binding again, we could burn more mana while she cannot cast.

The point of the mechanic is early game dominance, and a late game steroid.
Its not going to be used in team fights.
The same way you don't see people prioritizing Caitlyns traps in team fights, but in lane it is a great steroid.
Same would work for mana burn.

tl:dr; Mana burn is for early game dominance, and a late game steroid, not for that to be the champions main mechanic.


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Yahtz

Member

07-14-2012

I remember and miss Mana Burns; on a somewhat related note, I feel they need more "Stat Stealing" abilities (Currently only Malphite [MS] and Trundle [AD, MR, and AR] come to mind.


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