@Morello (Official!)

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IAmBruceSwain

Member

05-09-2013

Hey Morello, I just have a quick question.

Ive seen that in the game files that there is a skin for Viktor called Dark Harvester. Is there any news on this skin at all or is it just in the air?


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catraven

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're right - it is toxic and we agree. It's not overpowered, but it's definitely bad gameplay interaction. We're working on something a little bigger to fix Yi more, so we're waiting for that (which shouldn't be too much longer).
you shouldn't. can't you recognize a unique character when you see him? that's his ability and it is more unique than 5 bruisers you have made with slightly different abilities or 5 ap mages. now you want to change it bc it is 'toxic'.


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YuI Brenner

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Why don't you guys produce more skins? If I had it my way you guys would put out 3-5 skins a week. Is it a technical issue or a creative issue, or just not a priority?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the route I've been investigating, though that so far hasn't worked. I don't think it's a fatal flaw, but definitely harder than advertised. The root of this problem is that Ranged Carries do so much damage that "more damage" isn't a sufficient reward for melee ADC. The tools listed here (and the examples on our melee carries) let them get closer to doing their jobs, but the reality is that the risk isn't worth it in many cases.

I'll post more on this later, but your analysis on this matches up a lot with my own. Xypherous is exploring a different approach so we can understand more about this and try alternatives.
Morello, a lot of this leans toward the skill-based survivability systems I've been mentioning-- like Phasing.

And to a lesser extent the counterpart of buffing tanks. (Rather than taunting/initiating tanks.)

But as a point, you could simply reduce the damage of Ranged AD.

Make it a teamcomp choice to go for safe damage over more damage.

And potentially open up actual mage carries as well with their own 'tradeoffs'.


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Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borand View Post
1. Visually/Artistically/Thematically: I think this guy fits in the Shadow Isles theme more than he fits the Noxian theme. I wouldn't mind seeing a drastic rework on his base skin and analogies to make him fit there even more thematically. What do you think of this?
You and people like you are the reason lore is being wholesale raped.


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Tru3che

Senior Member

05-10-2013

With all the pages in this thread I doubt you will actually see this, but what the hell. I'm curious with current design of champions the use of gap closers and/or escapes is highly accounted for. While I agree the style of play in this game requires mobility the fact that most of these champs that have gap closers/escapes also have some sort of huge cc build in as well, for example Zacs e is a huge gap closer that has a built in knock up. I understand how these things can work for a champion that doesn't do so much damage, but add that in and it makes the champion incredibly broken. I only mention this because I saw another one of your posts that mentions you were okay with tanks having this kind of move, but not fighters. I was wondering if you've ever thought about making a champion whose main idea is people cannot run from him. For example, it could be something from the void who restricts movement, say he has an aura around him that disables gap closers/ escapes while active but for a large price. This aura would be really small, only slightly larger than melee range and would deactivate while when he's cc'd or what have you. This would allow for a champion that can counter all these high mobility champions, but still have counter play to him. This is just a random idea I had, I know you can always cc runners as of right now, but lets face it the game needs some new concepts that having been introduced yet.

Also, I'm curious on where you stand with the current meta and how you feel this effects junglers you all produce. Currently, it seems the jungle is go tanky or go home. This doesn't allow the use of high damage junglers, not only because the jungle hits harders, the meta requires it and the jungle doesn't offer nearly enough gold to actually be a damage dealing threat that doesn't fall off hard if you don't snowball early, but also because every high damage dealing jungler seems to be better suited for a lane. For example, I was truly hoping champions like Rengar and Zed would be great junglers, but in the case of Rengar he was just so strong if was too good not to use in top lane eventually leading to the nerfs he suffers from today. In Zeds case he has amazing clear speed, probably average ganks, but the fact remains that the jungle does not provide enough gold for him to remain effective while jungling and because he offers virtually no utility he is highly looked down upon when picked as a jungler. I guess this is just me being a die hard jungler who is really hoping for a unique champion that not only brings a cool bad ass factor, but gives me options when I'm doing well and a fall back plan if ganks don't go so well early. The only champion I can currently think of that fits this description is Lee Sin. If he does well early he can snowball into mid game and attempt to stay ahead, if he falls behind if still offers a good amount of utility so he isn't absolutely useless.

Sorry for this rant, if you actually took the time to read it. It's late, I have a lot of random questions, the organization is probably lacking, and there are probably commas, where, they, don't, belong.

Thanks,

Tru3che


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Then, uh, maybe reduce ranged ADC damage? Not ideal but...
This is probably part of the solution.

They need to make a comprehensive effort to introduce more design space into their game though.

So this may take the form of a combination of changes:

1. Melee ADs get abilities that allow them to 'dodge' damage based upon the player's skill. Like Fiora Riposte, but more effective.

2. New type of tank that can allow more effective melee laning and teamfight strategies by absorbing damage for allies without initiation. Effectively an "I'm going to save you" tank that can use abilities to 'spirit bond' damage away from allies without needing to be focused by enemies.

3. Just straight up reduce the damage potential of ranged champions. Range is a gigantic advantage in this game. It doesn't usually need an additional tons of damage, CC, and escapes.

Edit: And as a side note, all that damage CC and escape on a lot of your ranged champions is a holdover from when Jax and the like could actually fight toe-to-toe. Critical Defense, which you referred to as "dodge" was a pretty good limiter of Ranged AD power.


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Absolute 42

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the route I've been investigating, though that so far hasn't worked. I don't think it's a fatal flaw, but definitely harder than advertised. The root of this problem is that Ranged Carries do so much damage that "more damage" isn't a sufficient reward for melee ADC. The tools listed here (and the examples on our melee carries) let them get closer to doing their jobs, but the reality is that the risk isn't worth it in many cases.

I'll post more on this later, but your analysis on this matches up a lot with my own. Xypherous is exploring a different approach so we can understand more about this and try alternatives.
@Morello
I understand my way (which might be similar to your way) isn't the only option for melee adcs. Lots of people here on the forums think they can be fixed by items, and Xypherous seems to have his own approach.

I'm just theory-crafting here, but it seems that a good melee adc (done my way as a reverse bruiser) wouldn't have to rival ranged adc damage. Here's why: by using their defensive abilities optimally, they are actually serving as off tanks. They could potentially soak up a lot of damage/cc and still put out decent damage from offensive items and basic attacks.

Tradeoffs (with my style of melee adc):

Ranged adc-- very high lategame damage, squishy, must be protected by team, sustain damage (not bursty)
Melee adc-- medium/high lategame damage, usually squishy but situationally tanky, can soak up enemy damage/cc if played skillfully, sustain damage (not bursty)


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Kcugi

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Great feedback - Statikk and I will discuss these specifics. I'm likely going to make E not a lane sustain tool, but maybe something else helpful when aggression and peeling is what's happening (Alistar needs the risk of being worse when he's behind, like other good tank supports).
The only reason Alistar was played as support in the beggining was his heal. U want to remove it or nerf (it's actually preatty weak right now) but u still say he should be adjusted as support/tank. Without his heal, he shouldn't be support - jungle/top would be more approciate for a MINOTAUR.

Don't you think so?


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Venova

Senior Member

05-10-2013

@Morello - Bring in those AP Yi fixes soon... Toxic isn't the word for it, he can tank 5 players and a tower or two at once, how is that okay? And he can drop 3 members by a 3rd of their hp in an instant, finish them off when the cooldown is back up. Get this done sooner rather than later.