Ability Remake: Twitch, the Plague Rat

First Riot Post
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fodj123

Junior Member

07-15-2012

****!! WHY WILL YOU DO THAT RIOT? you really disapoint me old twitch was perfect. please ask before making some other big change because i'll be able to play with this disgusting agressive twitch that you transformed like any other ad carry.

**** you!


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Spawnpk

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Member

07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fodj123 View Post
****!! WHY WILL YOU DO THAT RIOT? you really disapoint me old twitch was perfect. please ask before making some other big change because i'll be able to play with this disgusting agressive twitch that you transformed like any other ad carry.

**** you!
Couldnt have said it better!


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Stormshield

Member

07-15-2012

I don't really understand what they're doing to the rat... They are lowering the duration of his stealth... and making him stack his poison faster? unless they are actually increasing how much his dot ticks for, that's not that good of a buff... esp if venom cask's slow doesn't scale with poison stacks... so only expunge will benefit from it, and removes said stacks when being used. I am very skeptical as to weather this will be a good thing for him...
I like his current game play... I've never had an issue playing him as long as my opponents didn't get fed. Oracles and wards were easy to counter.... buy an oracles yourself... kill wards when you find them and run away... as for the oracles users... just stealth and play as if you're not... stay behind your team and let the fight start, move into a decent position and unleash hell on the enemy team. Focus the oracles user if it's not like the cow or tank for that matter. If it is, then own their team, and then kill them last. that strat works for me every time I play him.


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Spawnpk

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07-15-2012

Was just thinking about the new twitch (may as well rename it cos it isnt a twitch) and our current beloved one...

Riot has really ruined a meta game of stealth and i guess that was their point... i played a game this morning and the team wernt newbs so they got vision wards to counter me early game.. Great move made life fun...

As the game went on i was slightly underpowerd but had forced soraka to buy 2 oracles and panthion to buy at least 7 to try counter me. This is negating any other vision wards they bought.
We only won because i pushed other lanes they wernt in.. this was helped by no other then the ability to ambush and get there unseen, push hard and get back out.

Now think about it, even as a slightly underpowered twitch i forced Panthion alone to spend at least 2,800 gold just to try counter me. Soraka spent 800 and the rest im not sure. The fact they decided i was of importance to counter (although was funny and fun) actually helped my team that now had them as priority targets. Thats an extra 3600 gold that wasnt used on damage or defence instead on just vision... that makes a difference.. and because they were now higher priority targets it changed the fight dynamic and made me very cautious when scouting... thus a fun game for all and actually a fairly close one!

With the new twitch NONE OF THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN... why get a vision ward for 3 seconds?? and late game you know twitch is there, just if you see him invis wait out for 8 seconds and then start your team fight. hell even better start the team fight, force him to wait for 1.25 seconds before he can even join it with the speed boost... and forget about positioning, scouting or backdooring because it really isnt going to happen... he is just going to be an every day AD carry same as the generic mold that riot is turning them all into


This change is like FRANK THE TANK (old school funny movie) getting married... it just shouldnt happen


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Aavak

Senior Member

07-16-2012

OP please nerf not 'refocus his potential' >.<


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M4GNU5

Junior Member

07-16-2012

As a player who mains Twitch I’ll be very interested to see if the proposed changes will retain the rat as a viable champion with a drastically changed playing style, or if you’ve sadly missed the mark and screwed up one of the few genuine stealth characters in the game.

I note that essentially, you want to migrate towards a (quote) more action oriented style of play (unquote). No disrespect intended, but did your summoner fall out of a tree and land on his head? Only days ago Eve picks up a passive which is effectively stealth, yet you slash and burn the rats ability to do the same claiming he forces people to hug turrets and play defensively? At least get your stories on the same page if you expect me to believe this isn’t pandering to the whining minority screeching “He’s OP! Nerf! Nerf!”

In this post I’ll leave the other ability changes as I can “kind of” see the balancing effect they have on the rat as a whole.

Lets go right back to the basics of League of Legends. What is it? Team based strategy. A group of five working together, with each other, for each other, to take out the enemy. So what benefits can twitch’s stealth ability bring to the team? Lets list a couple:

Cash consuming on Oracles and Vision Wards: at 400/125 gold respectively, paranoia costs the opposition, and, as has been pointed out, money on oracles is money that doesn’t go on attack or defence items.

Jungle Stalking: found that player on the other team who just wanders away on their own? Shadow them around while your team closes in for an easy kill, changing the tide in a close game.

One hit wonder: did an opposition member get away from a team battle with less than a bar of health, only to hide in a bush to recall? If i had a dollar for every time I picked up a sneaky kill followed by a global of “F#@*ing Rat!” I would be rich.

Back door bandit: The enemy inhibit pops and you’re flat out defending your own base; send in the rat on a lightning raid to take it down. He might get away, he might not, but how much of a strategic advantage do the super minions add to a lane?

As mentioned, I can see some of the balancing act at work in the other changes (and I’ll be interested to try them) but the complete destruction of ambush will destroy the ability to strategically harass the enemy and, lets face it, for a champion as slow moving and weak as Twitch, you’re as good as dead before your venom can kick in.

Try it sometime: how well can you stealth, position yourself at a team fight in middle lane in under ten seconds without consistently being the first to die?

Maybe I should give Eve a try...


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Uranium Pig

Junior Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainT View Post
Sounds like a nerf more than a rework.
how so?


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Count Bernadotte

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Junior Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by M4GNU5 View Post
As mentioned, I can see some of the balancing act at work in the other changes (and I’ll be interested to try them) but the complete destruction of ambush will destroy the ability to strategically harass the enemy and, lets face it, for a champion as slow moving and weak as Twitch, you’re as good as dead before your venom can kick in.
But they plan to increase the status of Twitch and use that as an excuse to withdraw stealth.
But they forget that the core of Twitch is the stealth, not poison! They talk so much about poison that they forget that the main focus of the rat is hide and kill.
If you put the poison as a primary it becomes a Teemo not a Twitch!
Teemo has a primary focus on poison and secondary in stealth.
Twitch (until this patch) has a primary focus on stealth and secondary in poison.
I repeat, do not destroy the essence of a champion! We bought it and have fun with it that way! Dont turn it on a Vayne!


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One True Deity

Member

07-16-2012

dont ruin twitch's aoe ultimate.. Thats what made twitch so awesome. He was the only non single target AD Carry. get him a PD, IE, BT and he would litterally melt so many people with the right positioning.. a lot of bad players assumed twitch was bad because they didnt know how to farm correctly, and position themselves. Most lower ELO players do not.


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Backup4now

Senior Member

07-16-2012

Twitch’s Ambush ability will be seeing some changes to shift him toward a more aggressive role on the battlefield

No. With a shorter stealth time, even with a movement speed boost, having a longer cooldown on stealth and shorter overall stealth time with EVEN SHORTER attack speed buff duration, this won't happen. Twitch players are better off standing next to their turret and last-hitting turret kills on minions.

Since this ability allowed Twitch to remain invisible for significant periods of time, enemy players were forced to adopt an extremely cautious and defensive playstyle in response

Really? No. I rarely saw people becoming any less agressive because of me playing as twitch. If I roam, they place wards and i can't gank effectively. In fact, one time mid and top lane were actually being pushed harder, and when i asked why they did that at the end of the game, they said "for a chance for you to show and get an easy kill and run away."

primarily surrounding the nature of the Attack Speed bonus that it provided

You found that the ATTACK SPEED BONUS was the biggest problem about it?...
You're joking, right?

While Attack Speed helps quickly stack up charges of Deadly Venom, this bonus ramped up over the total duration Twitch remained invisible. This forced players to strike a balance between selecting the ideal time to strike and attempting to lurk for as long as possible in order to reach the maximum bonus. This was especially problematic for Plague Rat enthusiasts, since it forced Twitch to forego farming gold in order to reach his maximum Attack Speed bonus.

What? Is this implying that Twitch players use invisibility to gain attack speed during the laning phase? Not only is that completely WRONG, but even THINKING that is stupid. Good Twitch players want to have their stealth OFF cooldown at all times, in case of a gank from either team, where it would help escape or attack. Twitch does NOT need an attack speed bonus to farm gold from minions. Who came up with that idea? If he's pushing a lane, then he must've not been in the lane, for it to be pushed, and he would've been in stealth on the way to the lane, giving him the full 10 seconds of AS when he arrived.

To shift emphasis towards a more action-oriented style of play

Twitch, while laning, isn't suppose to have any action unless there's a gank. This is true for almost EVERY. OTHER. CHAMP. The laning phase is just two ranged AD carries farming with support that heal the scratches off the poking they do to eachother and indefinitely warded bottom lane bushes to stop ganks from happening. Where is the action here, that you want to make present in Twitch that all other AD carries have?

Twitch was one of the most action-full champs on the league of legends. The common Twitch player would leave bottom lane as soon as he got boots (because bot lane farm-fest is a terrible place for him to be, since he was destroyed by a 400 gold item and helpless against enemy pokes) and started ganking other lanes. The first fifteen to twenty minutes of the game is full of twitch ganks! He is constantly looking for a kill. What could be more agressive and action-packed than he is now?

we retooled Ambush to promote aggressive repositioning over stalking

And that's exactly what you did. However, STALKING was one of the best parts about twitch. Unfair amounts of free intel were what made Twitch be Twitch. Either way, unless Twitch gets MASSIVELY increased armor and magic resistance in the patch, be ready to see tons of twitches be bursted down on-sight since he can only wait a few seconds for his target to get in a vulnerable position, and he can't run away and hope stealth comes back. to help. Positioning for twitch REQUIRED for his allies to start the fight and make it look like an even fight, until he was sure that the enemy wouldn't just kill him and run away when he appeared; And this required the full amount of time stealth previously had. Reducing the time of stealth makes life harder for Twitch AND his allies.

that it always applies the maximum Attack Speed bonus

Unnesecary, again.

solidifying the emphasis on selecting the opportune moment of attack

From the few seconds to get to the target, then waiting for this to happen, just won't work. He'll be running to the enemy and back to the bush he was hiding in in the same move. This is invalid.

Another issue Twitch faced was an over-reliance on the enormous damage potential of his ultimate ability. More often than not, Twitch’s success or failure on the battlefield depended on his ability to output massive amounts of damage over the course of Spray and Pray rather than on Deadly Venom and Expunge

Really? REEEEEAAAlly? Of course he relies on it, many champions do the same! The thing with Deadly Venom is that it's never a primary source of damage, and Expunge was destroyed by enemy magic resistance later in the game, making Deadly Venom better overall!
Twitch players usually shoot people with their ultimate as they're lined up. If they did it right, all of the enemy team would have 5/6/6 stacks of deadly venom on them anyway. No other damage dealing tool was nesecary.

Since most of his interesting gameplay revolved around poison combos, we wanted to augment this aspect of his kit both to make him more interesting to play and to make him less one dimensional

Most of his interesting gameplay did NOT revolve around poison combos. Expunge is only useful for early game, and no points were put into Debilitating Poison until midgame. His interesting gameplay was making the best of the **** he had. Adding an explosive to twitch does NOT make him more interesting to play, it's a nuisance, because now we're also stuck with positioning AND skillshot-lining issues.

Also, if expunge does physical damage instead of magic damage, say goodbye to it because it'll be right next to useless UNLESS it has higher base damage than the old one. Not removing stacks of poison with it ruined the description of the spell and made it closer to Darius' ultimate, which NOBODY wants to compare that in-game. It will no longer be Expunge.

Twitch players using Debilitating Poison to begin every engagement rather than waiting to build up stacks of Deadly Venom

Yet, in the Tips and Suggestions it says to use Debilitating poison on someone out of range and then add stacks of deadly venom. OF COURSE we initiate with debilitating poison! Stacks of deadly venom don't add much to the slow, and if you stack poison first, guess what? they'll be at their turret before you slow them down signifcantly, and even then Expunge would remove all of the stacks of venom ANYWAY, making venom a useless part of his W anyway. The slow is good enough was it was, and it helped strike fear in your targets!

with one that was better suited to initiating combat

Who the hell asked for this? Yes, it's better to start combat, but this can miss. i would rather have a 100% chance weak slow than a not 100% chance stronger slow that adds venom. PLUS, this barrel **** isn't NEARLY as all-around useful as Debilitating Poison was. Popping spellshields and raking in the assists and escaping and saving allies with Debilitating poison was immensely useful, this new spell can't do that nearly as well.

Spray and Pray to better support this new emphasis on poison gameplay

The new emphasis on Poison gameplay sucks, therefore all of the changes made to twitch's ultimate as listed won't help, other than the infinite ammo. This is very similar to his original ultimate.



Not only is Lane twitch going to be worse with the crappy new skills, but Jungle Twitch is going to suffer dramatically. Shaco will lane and jungle better than Twitch! Shaco owns twitch already, but after this, Shaco will own twitch MORE.

Twitch's fun came out of stalking prey and killing unsuspecting people. You are going to tear that away from him; he won't even be Twitch anymore. You're going to make him have gameplay similar to all other AD carries.

This apparent higher skill-cap doesn't even appear to be rewarding. Playing the same character on hard-mode while doing apparently decreased damage, nty.

This remake sucks, and if it goes out i'd like my IP back for him and for the runes i bought for him.

And that's all I have to say...