3 laners Vs 2 laners + jungler

First Riot Post
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DemolitionDean

Senior Member

07-16-2012

No one is arguing whether the buffs and experience in the jungle are worth it, someone in everygame builds a wriggles or is good at clearing jungle at some point the judgement to make is if it is safe and worth the risk to start jungling at level 1.
Personally I jungled on our team and I feel that it really limited our team composition since I HAD to have 1 of a few certain champions every game (after bans and the enemy picks) and when you are against good players they know how to abuse a 2 vs 1 situation. The biggest problem I had is that my team could not depend on me to consistently perform the same way because of random spawn camps. If you jungle in TT and anything goes wrong early levels you can fall behind REALLY fast and essentially lose the game for your teammates.
HOWEVER if you do get good spawns, a good first leash, and an early gank, GG you already won because the level/gold advantage and secure dragons at early levels are going to put your team WAY ahead.
tldr: jungling is very high-risk, high-reward play and people don't like taking huge risks when they are trying to win consistently.


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PrometheanRage

Senior Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
I love all the answers I'm getting. Just to clear things:

1) I 100% agree that jungling is hard in 3s. I've been playing it for a while now and am aware of the changes we've made

2) The goal of this thread was mostly to start a discussion regarding the various merits/disadvantages of jungling. My team always has a jungler because we can handle 2v1 lanes with ease most of the time.

3) The jungler is certainly way more difficult in 3s, but does that mean it's not worth it? The advantages that the buffs confer is just too large to ignore. Dragon is pretty much like getting Baron + acing the enemy team when it comes to the gold you get.
From the perspective of a normal blind pick playing scrub (probably 1200 Elo, at most):

1) Jungling is hard, and without a team to cooperate, the early jungle is very difficult.

2) Generally in top lane I run smite, and roam / lane / semi-jungle. I will stick to my own side as a rule, taking camps between waves. The biggest advantage that I find is the gold and level advantage, which then lets me zone out my lane opponent better (although buffs are also helpful with this).

Late game, more people can clear the jungle without needing smite, so there is more competition but early on, that smite is worth 100 g every minute or so at least, which adds up quickly. (Also helpful against siege minions when you want to push quickly.)

3) It is worthwhile, but difficult to do a dedicated jungler without a premade team. Solo queue just isn't coordinated enough to go 1v2 at my Elo, and quite honestly, the semi-jungle route is a big enough advantage to work with.

One edit: random spawns suck.


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xEsteban

Junior Member

07-16-2012

The standard top and 2 bot is pretty safe.


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

07-17-2012

The problem with leaving bot lane open to two enemies is that if your ally dies and you can't get to lane fast enough, they can push and destoy bot tower, which ruins the game for both you and your team (they can push bot and steal your jungle, also put pressure on top lane


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Taco Storm View Post
I love all the answers I'm getting. Just to clear things:

1) I 100% agree that jungling is hard in 3s. I've been playing it for a while now and am aware of the changes we've made

2) The goal of this thread was mostly to start a discussion regarding the various merits/disadvantages of jungling. My team always has a jungler because we can handle 2v1 lanes with ease most of the time.

3) The jungler is certainly way more difficult in 3s, but does that mean it's not worth it? The advantages that the buffs confer is just too large to ignore. Dragon is pretty much like getting Baron + acing the enemy team when it comes to the gold you get.
The buffs you get from top camps don't last long enough and are too random to get on the first time. By the time you clear the camps and get to lane, the buff's almost gone 9except dragon


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MrMan

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Senior Member

07-18-2012

I personally think that the Riot team needs to make several changes to Twisted Treeline. The first of which would be to the base laser (one of them has a much shorter range than the other). The second would be to revamp the jungle so it would be particularly viable to have a jungler in TT. There are a lot more changes that should be made to this map, but I think I will make a thread about them later.


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Eyesack

Senior Member

07-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Taco Storm View Post
That's weird. We've never lost to a Darius. In fact our last three games on Taco's Banditos have all been victories against Darius.
im 8/1 with darius. 8 wins. 1 loss.


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Treza

Senior Member

07-21-2012

i had a bit of a spree a few months ago when i first unlocked lee sin where i played as solo top laner but also had smite, and while i did have a few bad games, a lot of the time i completely dominated because for 1 the bonus gold smite gives from the blue tree spec adds up. for 2, i was clearing everything so fast. if i got a little ahead early or got an early kill or wasnt thoroughly challenged in the jungle, i snowballed, grabbed dragons solo as soon as i got wriggles, and just won from there. and ive progressed in skill overall considerably since then.

most people questioned me having smite, but looking back i would give smite on treeline generally favorable reviews. if you can take an early jungler camp for bonus damage or mobility, you have a huge advantage for the next minute or so.. especially with the mobility buff because then your enemies cant get away and they cant get you. if i had someone like a shen bot lane and maybe a good cc champ like fiddles solotop, and lee sin pure jungle, im pretty sure id have a field day


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GREchronicEN

Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Taco Storm View Post
Right, the jungle is hard, but the benefit you got from having a jungler is SO large. An AD like Yorick (who has lots of poke and decent sustain) or Olaf (who scales pretty hard with levels on his E and has poke/sustain) can usually handle the 2v1 lanes, albeit with a slight CS disadvantage.

Do you guys disagree that jungling provides a huge advantage?
I agree. But in normal games if you plan on jungling you usually have to reconsider if anyone on the other team picks a stealth champ. I have found that chogath is an excellent champ to solo bot as well as singed and galio.


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Alystra

Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Taco Storm View Post
Right, the jungle is hard, but the benefit you got from having a jungler is SO large. An AD like Yorick (who has lots of poke and decent sustain) or Olaf (who scales pretty hard with levels on his E and has poke/sustain) can usually handle the 2v1 lanes, albeit with a slight CS disadvantage.

Do you guys disagree that jungling provides a huge advantage?

I LOVE it when I see the enemy team with smite on it. The reason is they HAVE to start on their side in the lower jungle. I know exactly where to gank, and either I have a on hit gives vision champ (dianna, lee sin etc.) or buy a vision ward. Once you gank them at level 1 and kill them (they have 1 less useful summoner). Their jungler is done. He can NOT jungle at that point. Because after wiping them out if we have enough HP (normaly we do) we clear their camp. If we don't we leave a ward there and when he goes for the camp we collapse and kill him again. We also put a ward in top jungle on their side wolves/double golem.

Basically the only reason junglers work in 3s is because the other team doesn't know how/when to gank them. If you shut them down at level 1, they are screwed, and the play style they are used to is ruined. Now they HAVE to do a 2 person lane somewhere, and you have an early advantage.

I think I actually played against your team and did exactly this to you, and after the match suggested you don't jungle in case you meet more people who know what they are doing.

Also the best way to gank their jungle is to come from top lane. You walk down top lane, and enter the brush they are in from the top of the brush, you can drop a ward in first if you do not have a vision champ. Once you are in the brush you can see them as soon as they can see you, and so their 'advantage' to defend against that gank is gone. Also this takes most teams by surprise because they expect the gank to come from red buff.

I dunno. With using any amount of wards, a jungler is shut down, denied levels, gold, and removed from the game. If you are too scared to do the level 1 gank, know that they will do that camp, then go to their wolves/golems, and from their they go to their first buff. At their first buff they are really low on HP so ward in advance, and grab the free kill. And just keep warding + killing their jungler. You can actually give up on killing their lane partners, and focus their jungler until he is obsolete. Then you have a 2v3 for the rest of the game....

Junglers are a bad idea.