@Riot, @GD: Let's Talk About Xerath.

First Riot Post
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Minjo Master

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Senior Member

07-12-2012

Glad to hear it.


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Kitchoua Tembo

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Thanks! Looks like I'll be considering Scorched Xerath again!


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Mirror

Senior Member

07-12-2012

I like how an increase of 0.375 seconds was "his ult now takes like 2 seconds to drop"


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Phykos

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesaul View Post
I too am amazed, faith is being restored.

Thank you Riot!
Agreed. I was so pissed the the 1000 RP and Downtime debacle but now......**** I can't be mad lol.


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Ancient Tower

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarlordAlpha View Post
What? It sounds like you don't understand what the changes are:

Previous:
Damage-time: 0.5s (i.e., the tolerance for the Xerath player)
Dodge-time: 0.25s (i.e., the tolerance for the person dodging Xerath's ult)

Currently:
Damage-time: 0.875s
Dodge-time: 0.5s

Future:
Damage-time: 0.5s
Dodge-time: 0.5s


This makes Xerath's ult significantly more forgiving for the Xerath player, while giving the enemy some extra time to dodge. A good Xerath player should still be able to hit most of their ults.
I don't know how you got dodge-time, so I'm a bit confused on that bit. Damage-time is total delay from what I can tell.

"the tolerance for the Xerath player" I would imagine is the time between button press and damage. " the tolerance for the person dodging Xerath's ult" I would imagine is the time between red circle and damage.

Currently the time between red circle and damage is .625secs ( or .638? red has 2 diffrent fall times for live O_0), that's going down to .5secs. Up from the original .25secs.

Enemy has .625secs to dodge currently, that's being dropped to .5secs. Is that enough to fix Xerath or will they still walk out of it? (it's still double over pre-draven patch)

New ult is x2 the fall time of previous, current is x2.2 fall time of previous.


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WarlordAlpha

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Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkrx View Post
I'm not convinced and I'll explain why. This is still an overall nerf to Xerath from his original state on release.
It hurts a little bit, but the enemy having more time to dodge isn't nearly as significant as having to wait longer for your ult to hit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by donkrx View Post
So in layman's terms the Falltime (visual time opponents have to react to the circle) is 200% longer than it was on Xerath's release. We went from 0.25 seconds on release, to 0.625 seconds currently, to 0.5 seconds next patch.

Still a huge problem and Xerath will remain unplayable.

You said yourself that Xerath players currently need "near-perfect" positioning of the Barrage in order to land it, because the Falltime was too long (0.625 sec). Explain to me how shaving off a paltry 20% of that delay (0.625 sec --> 0.50 sec) fixes how unbelievably easy it was to dodge the ultimate?

Also, the 0.25 seconds that was 'removed' was done so somewhat artificially by putting it in with the cast time. This, obviously, does not at all affect the amount of time enemies have to react to the circular indicator. They still have twice as long to react than they did on release. That 0.25 seconds reduces the amount of time Xerath is locked down which helps in some respect for close engagements when he needs to move in between casting, but it does not address the problem everyone in this thread is complaining about.
Here's what makes me think it will be okay: decent opponents don't stop moving. Ever. They are ALWAYS MOVING. Even if they couldn't see your ult for the first 0.25 seconds, they were still moving away from it, or were still moving out of range.

For example, let's say you're in lane, and you cast your E at fairly long range at somebody (W doesn't matter in this instance). What are they going to do? Run the hell away (in general, anyways). As they ran away you would cast your ult slightly ahead of them, it would hit 0.5s later, and they would get stunned. You would unload all your damage on them as they were stunned, and they were dead. But the second your cast your E, regardless of what you were doing next, they will be running away.

Currently, you have to wait the extra 0.375 seconds. Regardless of whether or not they bother to dodge it (or even have the reaction time / ping to dodge it!), they are likely going to be running away from you in those extra 0.375 seconds. For most champions that would mean they move about 100-140 units depending on whether or not they have a high base MS/MS quints/boots. That's pretty significant.

Now, even if the indicator shows up a bit earlier, as long as the delay is the same, who cares? Any good enemy already knew what was coming. They were already running directly away from you, and they were already unlikely to juke your ultimate.

I mean, it's possible that it will now be super easy to dodge the ultimate, but I doubt it. Those extra 0.375 secs were killer mainly because not only would Xerath lose 100-140 effective range during that time, but he was also more vulnerable. He would have to lead his shot like crazy, and it was always super obvious when he was casting it anyways.


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WarlordAlpha

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Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOWERxHOLLOW View Post
I don't know how you got dodge-time, so I'm a bit confused on that bit. Damage-time is total delay from what I can tell.

"the tolerance for the Xerath player" I would imagine is the time between button press and damage. " the tolerance for the person dodging Xerath's ult" I would imagine is the time between red circle and damage.
Dodge-time: Amount of time that an enemy player will see the damage radius BEFORE damage is dealt. Like I said, this is basically the tolerance for the person dodging Xerath's ultimate. In my opinion it isn't a huge deal because decent enemies would start juking and such immediately after you started your combo.

Damage-time: Amount of time between when you hit the R button (assuming smartcasting, which is basically mandatory on Xerath) and when the damage is dealt.

So, yeah, you had it correct.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TOWERxHOLLOW View Post
Currently the time between red circle and damage is .625secs ( or .638? red has 2 diffrent fall times for live O_0), that's going down to .5secs. Up from the original .25secs.

Enemy has .625secs to dodge currently, that's being dropped to .5secs. Is that enough to fix Xerath or will they still walk out of it? (it's still double over pre-draven patch)

New ult is x2 the fall time of previous, current is x2.2 fall time of previous.
Here's the thing though: they ALWAYS had 0.5 seconds to walk out if it because the old damage-time was 0.5s. Again, it was always super obvious when Xerath was going to use his ultimate, so good players would start juking before the damage indicator even appeared. Honestly, I think that this is only going to help players who aren't used to playing against Xerath. Experienced Xerath players are still going to hit their ult most of the time, assuming that the damage-time delay is really going back to the exact same delay that it was before all of this.


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WarlordAlpha

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07-12-2012

The usual disclaimers apply, of course: it's possible Feral could have made a mistake with the numbers, and it's possible I could be wrong. I'm just taking an optimistic view of things here.


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donkrx

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarlordAlpha View Post
It hurts a little bit, but the enemy having more time to dodge isn't nearly as significant as having to wait longer for your ult to hit.

Here's what makes me think it will be okay: decent opponents don't stop moving. Ever. They are ALWAYS MOVING. Even if they couldn't see your ult for the first 0.25 seconds, they were still moving away from it, or were still moving out of range.
I made a mistake, and I deleted my post because it was mostly wrong.

I agree it will still be different, and people will have slightly longer to react, but as you said people are always moving so it will be hard to tell right now (before play testing) how much it will matter that the green circle is on the screen for 0.25s longer but the total delay is still the same at 0.5s. It's not something we can just analyze with numbers.

My mistake was that the total delay actually represents how accurate I have to be with the ultimate. Enemies will now get a little more of a warning, but since the total delay is 0.5 seconds (as it was on release), it shouldn't matter too much. It will be interesting to see. I'm thinking if Xerath can predict where they're moving it should be pretty close to how it was on release. It might be veryslightly harder to land but we have to wait to get the patch.

Again I responded too quickly because I've been waiting to hear from Riot and I mostly didn't expect them to change the animation, because I KNOW that they pride themselves on their animations.


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Gorkins

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Wait so let me clear things up...

Xerath got a delay change, so to compensate you gave him buffs to other abilities.

Now you're reverting the delay change, which results in random buffs for Xerath that were intended to compensate for a nerf that is now getting reversed?

Did I get that right?