RIOT PLZ. Orianna "buff" is more of a nerf (MATH ITT)

First Riot Post
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emasheqt

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chortlebrah View Post
Sorry bud, that opinion is not an option on this thread apparently.
It's not an option because it's wrong.

She can mathematically not to as much damage in her combo as before. Saying "the change to W was a nice buff to her teamfight damage" instantly nullifies your opinion because it shows you have no idea what you're talking about.


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emasheqt

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancell View Post
After playing approximately 50 Orianna games since the patch I can say with certainty this was a nice buff. She is MUCH more responsive (GCD changes) and the W and E buffs are very nice. The ability to move the ball around more far outweighs the small damage nerf, and the W damage increase outshines the extra damage Q used to put out in team fights. The only negative is the stun removal on R, but her overall RW nuke combo does a significant amount more AOE damage, so it's not completely awful. I suggest everyone be thankful for her improvements instead of dwelling on the small nerfs.
Mathematically incorrect. Please stop spreading false information.


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Prof YANA

Senior Member

07-12-2012

The reduced global cooldown thing is a major plus, but I feel she should never have had global cooldowns to begin with. The three biggest problems I see with her, and have seen since the first time she was changed in a patch after release, are Q range, ball projectile speed, and leash range. All three are too low *and* compound from each other. Longer range would make the slow ball more acceptable, since you'd be able to lead fleeing champions with it enough that it'd actually hit. Faster ball speed would make the short range more acceptable, since it'd actually go where you want it to instead of falling short if someone is running away at the edge of the range.
I'd personally prefer that her original Q range and ball speed were restored to how they were at release - caring less than I already do about the damage would be fairly difficult, since in my mind Q is mostly for positioning, while W is for both damage and utility, depending on how you want to use it. Even changing Q to a low (under 100) damage, 10-30 mana cost, 2 second cooldown skill with 900-1000 range and 1500-2000 projectile speed would be a major boost to her usability, though just the range and/or projectile speed would fix most of the problems she seems to have.


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Chortlebrah

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by emasheqt View Post
Mathematically incorrect. Please stop spreading false information.
Orianna is a SKILL based champion... not a MATH based champion. She is VERY situational.


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Xtasy

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Senior Member

07-12-2012

I don't get how mana is such a large issue with Orianna. I have Mana Regen Seals and the only mana-related item I get on Orianna is Rod of Ages. Every game I've had with Orianna after the patch, I've never needed blue.

If you're running out of mana after a small mana boost from items, you're playing Orianna wrong.


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effexkiller

Senior Member

07-12-2012

sure just change ball speed back and revert the R change and hey you know what you can keep the 100 range on E and passive change. Shes terrible compared to pre-patch. Roku I really don't wish ill on you but **** dude you have single-handedly made so many people miserable with this utter failure


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Morello

Lead Designer

07-12-2012
9 of 22 Riot Posts

OK, so I talked to the team a little bit; I'll give you a high-level overview.

* Orianna is, objectively, stronger. Look at high elo streams showing Orianna. She's doing well against a variety of midlanes and transferring well into the teamfight stage, as well as providing unique utility. Viability seems extremely promising.

* Using Orianna correctly now has a bigger impact. The changes, simply, allow her to do more things overall and adapt to a wider variety of situations. Additionally, changes to things like her passive are simply logical changes that fit with how people play Orianna in realistic environments (ie it's not common for her to get more than a couple AA's with her passive due to her squishiness).

* These changes make her 'cleaner': This is important for making your skill with Orianna not fighting against clunkiness of skills, but instead acting, reacting and making in-game decisions. For some reason, this is a contentious value because snooty players can perceive any usability change as noobification (which is just...wow), but overall it lets you focus on her core gameplay.

We're happy with the Orianna changes and they seem to be successful, but as with any change we'll watch and see what happens as things continue.


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Akkku

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Can we just get at least a small buff on Q ball speed. It's frustrating.


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Rishiya

Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, so I talked to the team a little bit; I'll give you a high-level overview.

* Orianna is, objectively, stronger. Look at high elo streams showing Orianna. She's doing well against a variety of midlanes and transferring well into the teamfight stage, as well as providing unique utility. Viability seems extremely promising.

* Using Orianna correctly now has a bigger impact. The changes, simply, allow her to do more things overall and adapt to a wider variety of situations. Additionally, changes to things like her passive are simply logical changes that fit with how people play Orianna in realistic environments (ie it's not common for her to get more than a couple AA's with her passive due to her squishiness).

* These changes make her 'cleaner': This is important for making your skill with Orianna not fighting against clunkiness of skills, but instead acting, reacting and making in-game decisions. For some reason, this is a contentious value because snooty players can perceive any usability change as noobification (which is just...wow), but overall it lets you focus on her core gameplay.

We're happy with the Orianna changes and they seem to be successful, but as with any change we'll watch and see what happens as things continue.
Pretty much this with anyone who's actually played orianna and leveled her correctly since her changes. Ori's just so much better off then she was before, and it shows. Anyone who says other wise, frankly, should just leave.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-12-2012
10 of 22 Riot Posts

Before answering specific questions, there's a lot of misinformation to clear up on this thread first that I need to clear up before we can get down to any specifics - Especially as to what the extent of the changes were and what specifically changed. So, first off keep that in mind.

So what changed, specifically?

Why is Orianna more responsive?

Essentially, the core of the Orianna changes were recoding the Q and E spells to include lag compensation and some small amount of mid-flight casting. The net effect of this is that every followup command to a Q and E spell got 0.25 to 0.5 seconds faster, depending on your latency.

That is, her Q/W combo and her Q/R combo became 0.25 to 0.5 seconds faster. The further reducing of her GCD down to 0.15 allows her to pull off her entire combo to the degree of 0.5 seconds to 1 second faster.

This is also what is leading to her impression of a "Burst Caster" while simultaneously also having lower net ratios. She's simply able to pull off her combo faster, if you are an experienced player and have a somewhat decent connection.

Of course, the counterplay around the ultimate was tuned very specifically from day one to account for this variable delay due to player latency of 0.25 to 0.5 seconds - Hence the increase in ultimate delay by 0.1 seconds - normalizing the experience of the opponents on reaction.

Why does the ultimate not stun now?

Looking at the code internally, this shouldn't actually have happened. It's a bug which I'll be trying to get in for next patch. Thanks for the heads up. It's always nice to have a pleasant reminder that I screw up all the time on implementation. :/

What's the deal with the Passive change? Why did you nerf my high end?

The passive change was a simple numbers adjustment. Before - Until you got around 500 AP or so, any and all use of the passive didn't actually contribute all that much damage. This is due to the fact that the number of hits and the hit amplification only made using the passive make sense until after 500 AP.

Essentially, before, you needed 4 hits, 3 to stack the full passive, one to actually get the full effect of the passive, in order to get the full damage of (35 + 0.2)*145% damage - and it wasn't worth it until 500 AP. A little silly, even for the AP/Nashor builds.

The new passive operaters similarly, except you only need 3 hits to get the full passive and we doubled the base damage and adjusted the AP ratio. Now the passive is stronger until you hit 500 AP. The AS/AP builds should be significantly stronger (as they never had the potential to hit 500 AP) to begin with.

The risk versus reward ratio of the passive was completely off and wasn't in line with a typical team fight - and so that's the adjusment. We shouldn't have actually nerfed your high-end case, unless your typical AS/AP build was getting more than 500 AP. If you notice your damage being significantly lower with that build - let us know because it's not intended.

So what's the deal with the 'W' ratio?

Command: Dissonance lost a good deal of the hard decision point that it had before. Orianna is a caster with some hard choices to make: Damage or Utility. On release, the 'W' and 'Q' had equal ratios with the Q having damage fall-off.

Finding ways to amplify the 'W' ratio reinjects this hard tradeoff gameplay that Orianna needs to be able to be balanced as an AP caster as she now needs to trade damage for utility at any given point.

So what's with Q's damage?

One of the major negative fallouts of the Q mana change was that Orianna players no longer had to use or become proficient at her kit in order to be a decent Orianna player. Pretty much, her Q was her primary damage, her primary poke and functioned as everything that she needed.

For a 'combo' mage, having one skill be the only skill that mattered was pretty off overall. This cannot be the norm.

That said, we're definitely tracking the Q change. Q was the majority of your damage before - and that can't be the case with a combo caster who should ideally need to string her abilities together to get maximum damage. I believe we're giving half of the AP ratio back to Q (0.5) on next patch as many of you have pointed out that it seems too unequal between Q and W where W is now waay too much of your damage than before.

So why the Q speed?

Again, it has to do with the reduced delay on the 'W' and 'R' activations. The ball went down to 1200 from 1275 - This means that the ball needs to travel an extra 0.05 seconds to get the the target destination of 875 units.

Since the ball speed was tuned around the total time of the combo - for counterplay reasons we made the adjustment so that the opponents had the appropriate time to respond to the combo.

If you think the ball is significantly slower - the time it takes it actually less than 0.05 to get there. While I agree that this makes all the difference in the world - your follow up spells are 0.25 seconds faster so.. chain your spells.

What about my Damage to Mana Ratio?

One of the things with essentially 'speed' or 'timing' related buffs, is that they directly pertain to accuracy.

Accuracy is one of the hardest things to judge - so we were loathe to touch that. Being more accurate with the ball makes a champion more mana efficient overall as you need less spells for overall the same effect.

As a side note

I appreciate all of you guys giving deep feedback on this and I assure you that I want to track these changes are strongly as you do.

However, it's extremely disruptive and it makes tracking extremely difficult if the same six or eight people monopolize a discussion and repeatedly drown out other posts. (You know who you are.) I can't gather mixed feedback or signals when discussion is being monopolized. Trying to formulate an accurate responses and seeing how many people are affected is drastically harmed if a small group of like minded individuals drown out every other discussion.

While I appreciate your passion and insight - try to keep in mind that in order for a discussion forum to be a discussion and to be useful to gather broad spectrum feedback, it needs to be broad spectrum feedback to begin with.

Thanks all!