RIOT PLZ. Orianna "buff" is more of a nerf (MATH ITT)

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PanRouge

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chortlebrah View Post
Well I don't see how her ability to be a Utility Mage has changed at all. If anything her global cool down reduction increased her Utility along with her E range increase. She simply does some burst damage now.

Regarding the mana cost on her Q. Since it was reduced in a previous patch, Riot had this change for Orianna planned for a while. That change on her mana cost was more than likely to get players ready for the Jayce patch changes in which her Q did slightly less dmg (this was not a great idea seeing as how people got too used to doing a fair amount of dmg with Q for such a small mana cost). Players undoubtedly thought it was unfair to decrease the dmg in the Jayce patch and keep the mana costs as they were previously.

I do agree that the high dmg on her Q was somewhat luxurious for the mana costs they had; however, it was a necessary nerf for the global cool down buffs.
Keeping Q costs at 50 was a great buff, but it made leveling Q first to be almost a norm for people. Leveling W first uses up mana galore, while Q allows you to do lots of damage with sustained mana. This patch makes people want to level W first, once again draining mana pools quickly.

Leveling E first, allows you to budget mana between your Q (50) and E (60) but now you have no damage as W isn't leveled at all. So the burst damage doesn't even come until mid-late game when you can finally level W and Q.

On top of this weak early-mid game, you have a sub-par ultimate that costs more than her W, despite being less effective and less useful. The stun made the mana cost worth it. The stun also made the ultimate FEEL like an ultimate. You cast R and your excitement level increased as you tried to deal as much damage as possible before your opponent became unstunned. Now, if you have W on cool down, your R is pointless. You flip your opponent(s) and they all flash away. You have no drive, no excitement and no purpose to pursue. They would just strike you down. Especially since there is no way that your ball could catch them so that you could use your W, which is probably no longer on cool down.

She just doesn't have that excitement factor anymore.


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Haha same YOLO

Senior Member

07-12-2012

I feel like she's snapper though. So please no nerf post these potential subsequent changes. I like that. Just don't nerf her more D:


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murlocmancer

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Why not jus make command attack command move for like 10 mana and 0 damage. If they want her to use w for damage just make command attack do nothing at all and cost very little mana and I will be happy with this new thing. But mana is bad her laning phase is lower, her late game passive is weaker, and q did more damge then w lets face it. And that ult can't even land ANYONE can get out of it if they have some awareness.


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DarkerNectron

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chortlebrah View Post
It does hurt them. A minor dmg reduction on Q.. it's not supposed to be her main source of dmg like people were using it for (because it was mana efficient due to a previous patch that reduced it's cost to 50 flat mana/cast). It does not make sense with her whole kit for her Q to be her main source of dmg conceptually.
Just to point out that she is, in concept, a DPS mage. Maxing Q first was very mana efficient, allowed her the best damage/mana, and encouraged her to use W for utility which makes perfect sense.

To be honest, until about 6 months ago I believed that maxing W first was the only way to go. (this was before Q's mana cost was changed to 50 at all ranks). I always felt like I was mana starved without blue, and trying to lane against anyone with sustain or MR (Irealia, Kassadin w/ regen-pendant, Galio, anyone who built a revolver) could out last my harass.

Then I ran across a post in a forum that advocated starting with Q. I said if they could win 3 games in a row with Ori that I would main her until I learned how far I could go with her. They did, so I picked up Orianna again and began tirelessly re-learning her kit. I strayed away from the recommended RoA build and found my own build path that worked best to carry games: 2xdorans + cdr boots + hextech + deathcap. The build worked very successful, the build path was very streamline and balanced perfectly AP and mana so that the mana issues were perfectly balanced with maximum damage. Granted its a glass cannon sort of build, it worked well.

The changes to W encourages you to Q + W, but to receive the same damage output as before, you now need to land stay precariously in range of the enemy's abilities to recieve the same damage out-put as before. Maxing W might be a viable path now that Q scales horribly, but it wasn't the correct path before the patch (for me).


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Chortlebrah

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanRouge View Post
Keeping Q costs at 50 was a great buff, but it made leveling Q first to be almost a norm for people. Leveling W first uses up mana galore, while Q allows you to do lots of damage with sustained mana. This patch makes people want to level W first, once again draining mana pools quickly.

Leveling E first, allows you to budget mana between your Q (50) and E (60) but now you have no damage as W isn't leveled at all. So the burst damage doesn't even come until mid-late game when you can finally level W and Q.

On top of this weak early-mid game, you have a sub-par ultimate that costs more than her W, despite being less effective and less useful. The stun made the mana cost worth it. The stun also made the ultimate FEEL like an ultimate. You cast R and your excitement level increased as you tried to deal as much damage as possible before your opponent became unstunned. Now, if you have W on cool down, your R is pointless. You flip your opponent(s) and they all flash away. You have no drive, no excitement and no purpose to pursue. They would just strike you down. Especially since there is no way that your ball could catch them so that you could use your W, which is probably no longer on cool down.

She just doesn't have that excitement factor anymore.
It's not smart to lvl W first even though it does more dmg. At lvl 5 2 points in Q, 2 points in W, 1 point in E and you should see some nice dmg for a reasonable mana cost.

Ulting w/o W is not smart and would not be recommended in any situation except to peel when extremely necessary.

Also baiting their flash comes in handy. Knowing that your opponent no longer can escape ensures a kill for a smart Ori player.


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DarkerNectron

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanRouge View Post
Keeping Q costs at 50 was a great buff, but it made leveling Q first to be almost a norm for people. Leveling W first uses up mana galore, while Q allows you to do lots of damage with sustained mana. This patch makes people want to level W first, once again draining mana pools quickly.

Leveling E first, allows you to budget mana between your Q (50) and E (60) but now you have no damage as W isn't leveled at all. So the burst damage doesn't even come until mid-late game when you can finally level W and Q.

On top of this weak early-mid game, you have a sub-par ultimate that costs more than her W, despite being less effective and less useful. The stun made the mana cost worth it. The stun also made the ultimate FEEL like an ultimate. You cast R and your excitement level increased as you tried to deal as much damage as possible before your opponent became unstunned. Now, if you have W on cool down, your R is pointless. You flip your opponent(s) and they all flash away. You have no drive, no excitement and no purpose to pursue. They would just strike you down. Especially since there is no way that your ball could catch them so that you could use your W, which is probably no longer on cool down.

She just doesn't have that excitement factor anymore.
Agreed, except why would your opponent flash after you ult when they could flash out of it in the first place. 0.5 seconds feels like a pretty long start-up time when the ultimate is projected by 1) the ball moving to the champion (they are aware that Ori might ult), and 2) the 0.5 second start-up animation that is unmistakable? :P
Without stun it doesn't feel like an ultimate. Her R feels underwhelming now.


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Flipsy

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chortlebrah View Post
Well I don't see how her ability to be a Utility Mage has changed at all. If anything her global cool down reduction increased her Utility along with her E range increase. She simply does some burst damage now.

Regarding the mana cost on her Q. Since it was reduced in a previous patch, Riot had this change for Orianna planned for a while. That change on her mana cost was more than likely to get players ready for the Jayce patch changes in which her Q did slightly less dmg (this was not a great idea seeing as how people got too used to doing a fair amount of dmg with Q for such a small mana cost). Players undoubtedly thought it was unfair to decrease the dmg in the Jayce patch and keep the mana costs as they were previously.

I do agree that the high dmg on her Q was somewhat luxurious for the mana costs they had; however, it was a necessary nerf for the global cool down buffs.
To start off, you don't see how her ability to be a utility mage has changed at all? To me personally, a utility mage does sustained damage over time while keeping the enemy close, weaker, and susceptible to further harm. Making her a burst mage means she's blasting out as much DPS in a short time as possible, then waiting for cooldowns to come back before attacking again. Utility mage and burst damage DPS mages are 2 separate spectrums, yet you just stated she can be both, which is contradictory. She used to be able to secure kills for others, and feed her teammates in the case they were around. She does burst damage within 1 spell now, reducing burst damage possibilities in other skillsets, and forcing players new and old to now believe that she needs to be played solely as an AP carry and secure all kills for herself, making this into a single-player fragfest instead of a team game. Her increase of W but decrease of Q is incentive for players to now max W to do damage, because "damage wins games" is what I hear among lower level *******. Increasing AA damage and E range is incentivizing counter-intuitive play but making players think it's okay to be a puppetmaster from miles away, but also to build towards her passive and be up close and personal. This patch is lowering her skillcap and inviting morons to think they have an opinion because she's another burst mage like LB or Ahri.

GCD got counteracted by the speed of The Ball. The Ball's entire purpose was to make the enemy afraid to be near The Ball. At times, you'd see The Ball flying at you and dodge it, or else getting hit by Q would cause considerable damage. Sometimes I wouldn't even hit W after my Q, even if it would connect. I would leave The Ball in their minion wave and if they ever got near it, I would W then to remind them I'm still a threat. Now The Ball is a joke, Q is negligible damage, and W is an 8-9 second cooldown and is her ONLY source of damage. GCD is great for people with the reaction time of sloths and required a nuke to be a successful Orianna. Before, Q was a considerable threat, now W is her only real source of damage. Now Command: Splash (dat Magikarp) is a joke, and the only way to make use of the GCD is to Q and keep The Ball out, which is your means of free armor and MR, meaning you're now squishy again, causing you to (again) falsely believe it's better to autoattack up close and act like a DPS mage against a burster...like Annie.

You want to tell me it was planned for awhile now? Let's see the changes done to Orianna so far:

-W AP ratio reduced to .5 from .6, movement speed/slow boost reduced by 5% at all ranks to 20/25/30/35/40 (nerf)
-W base damage reduced by 0/5/10/15/20 (nerf)
-E shield strength AP ratio reduced to .4 from .6 (nerf)
-AA range reduced by 50 (nerf)
-Q mana cost increased by 10 at every rank to 50/55/60/65/70 (nerf)
-Q range reduced by 100 (nerf)

People complained at this point cuz she was nerfed into oblivion. Riot's response?

-Q mana cost reduced to 50 at all ranks (buff)
-Base mana regen increased by 3.5/5s (buff)
-Mana regen per level increased by .05/5s (buff)
-Q range increased by 25 (buff, but only 1/4 of what was taken away)
-AA range increased by 25 (buff, half of what was taken away, still well within range of everyone else in the game)

And people were AMAZINGLY FINE WITH THAT. Sure, they gave back a fraction of what they stole, but people were okay with it. Riot wasn't planning this for a while, players were fed up with every champion coming out doing AP mid better than Orianna because they had more damage, more escapability, more survivability, more viability in non-aoe-team-comps, and better skill effects. In return, Riot gave some stuff back to keep her up with the current champs and the newer ones coming out so people would still use her. Her skillcap was still high as she was still a utility mage and not a burster, so that kept the unskilled out, but reeled in the slightly curious ones such as myself.

These changes turn her into an entirely differently played champion. The Q at all ranks was actually helpful in making her Q MORE viable, and maxing Q in certain situations made life a ****load easier on players against some of the newer champions. Mana cost was flattened because players were complaining that DPM wasn't worth it with the increasing mana costs, but you're too retarded to catch onto that, you being one of the new Orianna players, huh? 2 Ranks in Q before this patch AND the flattened mana cost patch (V1.0.0.138) was more than enough damage, and was worth the cooldown and mana cost.

GCD wasn't a big buff, nor was it REALLY needed unless their intention was to lower her skillcap so newer players would pick her up and she'd be played more often. However, that removed her viability because now people are playing her solely as a burst mage, and not as a utility mage like she used to be.


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Chortlebrah

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipsy View Post
To start off, you don't see how her ability to be a utility mage has changed at all? To me personally, a utility mage does sustained damage over time while keeping the enemy close, weaker, and susceptible to further harm. Making her a burst mage means she's blasting out as much DPS in a short time as possible, then waiting for cooldowns to come back before attacking again. Utility mage and burst damage DPS mages are 2 separate spectrums, yet you just stated she can be both, which is contradictory. She used to be able to secure kills for others, and feed her teammates in the case they were around. She does burst damage within 1 spell now, reducing burst damage possibilities in other skillsets, and forcing players new and old to now believe that she needs to be played solely as an AP carry and secure all kills for herself, making this into a single-player fragfest instead of a team game. Her increase of W but decrease of Q is incentive for players to now max W to do damage, because "damage wins games" is what I hear among lower level *******. Increasing AA damage and E range is incentivizing counter-intuitive play but making players think it's okay to be a puppetmaster from miles away, but also to build towards her passive and be up close and personal. This patch is lowering her skillcap and inviting morons to think they have an opinion because she's another burst mage like LB or Ahri.

GCD got counteracted by the speed of The Ball. The Ball's entire purpose was to make the enemy afraid to be near The Ball. At times, you'd see The Ball flying at you and dodge it, or else getting hit by Q would cause considerable damage. Sometimes I wouldn't even hit W after my Q, even if it would connect. I would leave The Ball in their minion wave and if they ever got near it, I would W then to remind them I'm still a threat. Now The Ball is a joke, Q is negligible damage, and W is an 8-9 second cooldown and is her ONLY source of damage. GCD is great for people with the reaction time of sloths and required a nuke to be a successful Orianna. Before, Q was a considerable threat, now W is her only real source of damage. Now Command: Splash (dat Magikarp) is a joke, and the only way to make use of the GCD is to Q and keep The Ball out, which is your means of free armor and MR, meaning you're now squishy again, causing you to (again) falsely believe it's better to autoattack up close and act like a DPS mage against a burster...like Annie.

You want to tell me it was planned for awhile now? Let's see the changes done to Orianna so far:

-W AP ratio reduced to .5 from .6, movement speed/slow boost reduced by 5% at all ranks to 20/25/30/35/40 (nerf)
-W base damage reduced by 0/5/10/15/20 (nerf)
-E shield strength AP ratio reduced to .4 from .6 (nerf)
-AA range reduced by 50 (nerf)
-Q mana cost increased by 10 at every rank to 50/55/60/65/70 (nerf)
-Q range reduced by 100 (nerf)

People complained at this point cuz she was nerfed into oblivion. Riot's response?

-Q mana cost reduced to 50 at all ranks (buff)
-Base mana regen increased by 3.5/5s (buff)
-Mana regen per level increased by .05/5s (buff)
-Q range increased by 25 (buff, but only 1/4 of what was taken away)
-AA range increased by 25 (buff, half of what was taken away, still well within range of everyone else in the game)

And people were AMAZINGLY FINE WITH THAT. Sure, they gave back a fraction of what they stole, but people were okay with it. Riot wasn't planning this for a while, players were fed up with every champion coming out doing AP mid better than Orianna because they had more damage, more escapability, more survivability, more viability in non-aoe-team-comps, and better skill effects. These changes turn her into an entirely differently played champion. The Q at all ranks was actually helpful in making her Q MORE viable, and maxing Q in certain situations made life a ****load easier on players against some of the newer champions. Mana cost was flattened because players were complaining that DPM wasn't worth it with the increasing mana costs, but you're too retarded to catch onto that, you being one of the new Orianna players, huh? 2 Ranks in Q before this patch AND the flattened mana cost patch (V1.0.0.138) was more than enough damage, and was worth the cooldown and mana cost.

GCD wasn't a big buff, nor was it REALLY needed unless their intention was to lower her skillcap so newer players would pick her up and she'd be played more often. However, that removed her viability because now people are playing her solely as a burst mage, and not as a utility mage like she used to be.
Holy ****, TLDR jesus.


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Flipsy

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chortlebrah View Post
Holy ****, TLDR jesus.
Holy ****, learn to read more than 5 sentences before falling asleep. Good luck with your SAT's with that kind of a response.

You seen my thread? Don't read it if you don't like lots of paragraphs full of accurate reasoning and dislike towards this last patch that at LEAST 146 Orianna players agree with.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2330697


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Lord Melons

Senior Member

07-12-2012

I'm making sure this stays bumped