Udyr tiger stance stack with sheen?

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SciencePrime

Senior Member

09-01-2010

Udyr's tiger stance activation deals x times "his attack damage" as magic damage. 2 questions:

1) Is this his base attack damage or total (including items)
2) does this stack with sheen?

I imagine it does but I'm writing a udyr guide and want to be 100% sure.


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Sturmhard

Senior Member

09-01-2010

1.) total damage including all items

2.) it does NOT stack with sheen or trinity. only xx% of your base damage (-items) gets added if you use sheen

3.) do NOT play an Udyr which builds only damage

4.) do NOT write a guide....pls


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Covenant

Senior Member

09-01-2010

I agree with Sturm, don't write a guide yet.

Tiger's Activate effect is a magic hit, not a physical hit, from all appearences. Because of this it would not work with sheen.

Sheen is overall a weak Udyr item because it either builds to Trinity Force (not worth the huge cost) or Lichbane (entirely useless) when a reasonable Udyr who wants damage can add more power-per-second by actually buying a damage item or by buying the tanky sorts of items that make him so durable anyway. How can tanky items lead to increased Udyr beatdown potential?

You see, Udyr's Tiger Stance benefits from a decent AD item but also hugely from cooldown reduction. 40 percent cooldown reduction (40 percent is max) gives you nearly twice as many Tiger Activation strikes, meaning you nearly double your damage output and are the Monkey's Agility state more often. But it also means you nearly double your ability to stay in turtle shell mode, which makes you more survivable too--a serious plus for finishing off a gank.

But that's not all--the best cooldown combo is basically Randuin's Omen + Frozen Heart, which are useful items from useful components (Heart of Gold, Glacial Shroud) that make you super durable and combined equal 40 percent cooldown reduction. Getting shroud also helps your mana situation nicely.

While they're both armor items, not magic resist, they come from basic components that are really good to have, affordable, and if casters become a big problem you can always get Merc Treads and Banshee's veil without having spent any money on 'useless' items. Part of the damage you take will always be physical (they will have at least ONE carry or autoattack-heavy character) so Shroud+HoG will not go wasted. Plus their mana and health is amazing as a mid-game boost.

So to play Tiger well, get armor. At least, those armor items. Sounds silly but it works. And then adding Black Cleaver to the mix doesn't hurt.


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NailTheBastard

Senior Member

09-01-2010

Randuin's Omen with a Frozen heart is all armor though. Many times I find I need more magic resistance than armor, depending on the enemy team build of course. I prefer to get an Aegis of the Legion because you get both armor and magic resist. You really only need both at 100 for 50% damage reduction. After that you should go for high damage item and attack speed item. Then you should finish off with a strong armor or magic resist item.


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NailTheBastard

Senior Member

09-01-2010

Also...40% cooldown reduction is worthless for Udyr because his abilities come back super fast anyhow.


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DoransTroll

Senior Member

09-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
Tiger's Activate effect is a magic hit, not a physical hit, from all appearences. Because of this it would not work with sheen.
I think the word you're looking for is an item proc. It is activated separately "after (per se)" your attack. Hence I do not think it gets added into your AD directly.

On the matter of CDR:
It's always a good idea if you use Tiger Stance as your main damage source. Phoenix does not pulse faster with CDR, but you get more Tiger burst in (I think the DoT lasts 3 sec, and his CD is at 4sec). You wouldn't need to go as far as 40% CDR though. (But I suppose it will help with Turtle Stance).


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seajaydub

Senior Member

09-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by NailThe******* View Post
Also...40% cooldown reduction is worthless for Udyr because his abilities come back super fast anyhow.
So... according to your terrible logic, getting defensive items on a tank is a bad idea because they already have decent survivability.

Wow.


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Covenant

Senior Member

09-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoransTroll View Post
I think the word you're looking for is an item proc. It is activated separately "after (per se)" your attack. Hence I do not think it gets added into your AD directly.
Ahh, well, what I meant was that Sheen adds damage to your next physical hit--and the Tiger on-activation is not physical, so it does nto proc at all. It doesn't passive buff your AD score at all.

Sheen's hit does apply to your next 'normal' attack, but since Tiger Stance is buggy, it only adds 80% to the first of his 3 microhits--bad news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoransTroll View Post
On the matter of CDR:
It's always a good idea if you use Tiger Stance as your main damage source. Phoenix does not pulse faster with CDR, but you get more Tiger burst in (I think the DoT lasts 3 sec, and his CD is at 4sec). You wouldn't need to go as far as 40% CDR though. (But I suppose it will help with Turtle Stance).
40% is only handy because the items it comes from are good. I try to get glacial shroud each match (it solves my mana problems easily) because even a second less on cooldown is a big advantage for mashing as much power out of him as possible.

If you were against a heavy magic team I'd probably just stop with the shroud and make sure I can survive the initiation phase.

If you have Cooldown Reducer runes however you can skip Randuin's, get the Shroud, and then max out whatever stuff you like, since you should have plenty of cooldown already. Randuin's is good but you could get the Catalyst early instead of HoG and end up with Banshee's Veil and Frozen Heart for your defensive items.

And yeah, it sure helps with turtle, but it's great with anything he does. Mostly it works as a panic-inducer:

Hit Tiger then Bear quickly on approach. Bear stuns and the Tiger attack procs You've just done about 700 damage before armor. Dance to Tiger for another maul. You've probably done around 1500 damage before armor now and only a three seconds have passed. They are probably turning to run and an ally may be hammering them as well. Swap back to bear for another stun, hit tiger as they wake out of it, and you've probably done close to 2500 damage in about 5 seconds and the battle has barely started.

And this kind of output is basically sustainable. Overlapping Turtle Shields, Overlapping Bear Speed Boosts, and near constant Tiger Mauls. Remember that Tiger's damage is Magic damage, so unless people are stacking MRes they'll be panicing at the huge amount of damage they're taking from you without exactly knowing why.


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egnition

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Recruiter

09-01-2010

I play Udyr as main and I still don't know what it does and what it is for. I usually hit level 18 and still see "+" mark above tiger stance until end of game.

If it turns me to real tiger while i use it then i'll maybe start levelign it

Pro tip: ignore it and u will win


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Cueballmac

Senior Member

09-01-2010

Udyr is my 3rd favorite jungler aside from Nunu and Mumu. At first I thought sheen was a great item for Udyr, but later on I've found much more success grabbing a lantern/madreds bloodrazor, 2x sunfires, Banshees Veil, Phantom Dancer/Blood thirster.

I think that building Udyr as an OffTank like garen is the way to go. Building him as a pure dps is viable but, being a tank support is really the best route for the druid.


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