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Hybrid Penatration item concept - Anuket's Halberd

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Irelia Bot

Member

07-28-2012

I wish Reds would comment on some things on this forum.


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Nile Strom

Member

07-28-2012

The idea is interesting but I think it would be too powerful on many champions that deal mixed damage.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

07-28-2012

Quote:
Nile Strom:
The idea is interesting but I think it would be too powerful on many champions that deal mixed damage.


The % penetration is designed in such a way that it requires a very large investment into ap and ad before it actually adds much, and a champion's damage will actually go down if he/she tries to take this with Last Whisper and Void Staff compared to what it would be with a different setup.


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Irelia Bot

Member

07-28-2012

If you read the end of the OP you are given an example of how building pure AP is generally better then trying to build hybrid with 60% penetration on one side and roughly 25 - 30% on the other with this item you are limited in the power behind it.


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Irelia Bot

Member

07-30-2012

Bumping because I hope that Xypherous will give a explanation as to why this item would or would not work in the game.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
ZaP616:
Bumping because I hope that Xypherous will give a explanation as to why this item would or would not work in the game.


I hope he sees it and reads it too, but he would need time to think about it.


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mrocznykiciak

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Neat idea, however im not sure if this reverse scaling is really needed.
penetracion anyways cap at 30% so for pure dmg its always better to go void staff/LW.
While if you are not 50/50 hybrid but more 70/30 its much less appealing.


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Irelia Bot

Member

07-30-2012

It has the scaling so that someone doesn't get 58% armor or magic pen from this item without sacrificing a lot of the damage behind it.

If any champ could get 58% magic pen with 120 AP along with 320 from RoA, Deathcap and hourglass for a total of 572 AP (no runes or masteries) they would make tanks a thing of the past.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
mrocznykiciak:
Neat idea, however im not sure if this reverse scaling is really needed.
penetracion anyways cap at 30% so for pure dmg its always better to go void staff/LW.
While if you are not 50/50 hybrid but more 70/30 its much less appealing.


Despite the fact that % penetration scales multiplicatively, there is still potential for some very serious problems if an ap or ad champion could just take the item with Last Whisper or Void Staff for a total of 62.2% penetration on anyone. The most extreme example would be Xerath, who could get 77.32% magic penetration. Even an insane Galio player who was obsessed with stacking magic resistance would never get more than 68.04 magic resistance against that. This down from 300 assuming he toook multiple Force of Natures and Mercury Treads on top of a magic resistance runepage. It would be impossible to feasibly build up enough resistance to survive and still be useful for anything.

The ad and ap reverse scaling prevents this exact kind of problem, while the cap (which is supposed to be very hard to reach in the first place) prevents the absolute worst possible scenarios. Under almost all scenarios, stacking Last Whisper or Void Staff with the hybrid penetration item will instead result in a loss of damage for the following reasons:
-The multiplicative scaling of % penetration means that individual large % increases are much stronger than multiple smaller % increases.
-The ad & ap requirements necessary to make the item a real problem are intended to be out of reach in the event that one tries to mix the item with Void Staff and Last Whisper. Both items provide much less total ad/ap than a standard hybrid item, so the sacrifice of two additional slots won't provide a problematic amount of % penetration, and you will actually lose damage because of the lack of normal scalars.
-In order to get the scalars to make the item a problem when combined with Last Whisper and Void Staff, one would need to sacrifice all defenses possibly even including boots. The champion would die as fast as a ranged ad carry, if not faster because hybrid champions do not typically have the range to protect them.

Meanwhile, a hybrid that builds a good amount of ap and ad still finally receives the benefits of a % penetration item for lategame, improving the effectiveness of said champion and maintaining its viability past the normal fall out period.

The value is capped because it is more difficult to build armor and magic resistance in conjunction than to counter build against just magic damage or just physical damage. This further prevents the % penetration from ever becoming a problem.


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Lewul

Member

07-31-2012

Hybrids still prefer one damage type over the other. As Jax, even with pure AP, the hits from his Lich Bane deal physical, so he still ends up doing 3-4x as much physical as magical damage. With Akali, it's still mostly magical. Evelynn deals mostly physical, since even AP or Hybrid Eve rely on Lich Bane or Trinity Force for a lot of her damage. Kayle deals mostly physical, since building AP is silly as her.
Just go for whatever penetration you need as the character, really.