Hybrid Penatration item concept - Anuket's Halberd

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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

07-16-2012

Bump


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Autocthon

Senior Member

07-16-2012

As long as it counts base AD


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KyroRayne

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Senior Member

07-16-2012

My AD Teemo will LOVE this weapon Free MPen for building AD to help with Madred's and Poison.


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenkin Rei View Post
My AD Teemo will LOVE this weapon Free MPen for building AD to help with Madred's and Poison.
Perhaps but if it shows to be balanced for all but one champ that champ will likely get nerfed. I don't see this as much of a problem though becauae it will only make teemo a little more effective against tanks while not much more to squishies.


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KyroRayne

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Senior Member

07-16-2012

Teemo doesn't need a nerf. He's barely balanced as is. He can be great as a counter pick top, but that's about it against any good players.

But as I said, this is a good weapon. Good on Jax and Akali, as well as any other champ that can build hybrid.


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenkin Rei View Post
Teemo doesn't need a nerf. He's barely balanced as is. He can be great as a counter pick top, but that's about it against any good players.

But as I said, this is a good weapon. Good on Jax and Akali, as well as any other champ that can build hybrid.
Teemo needs some changes but that is a different story. And if you go with the standard items of frozen mallet and malady you will not be getting much use from this item at all given that 3 items would only provided you with 55 AD add in the 98.5 at level 18 and you have only 18% magic pen from three items. For the AP you would have 75 from 3 items and would only get 11.75% armor pen. I don't for see this items being ideal on teemo being that he is usually build as a pure ad or pure AP.


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KyroRayne

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07-18-2012

My build on Teemo is generally Wits End, Madreds, FM, Atmas, Mercs, BT. I would replace Atmas with AH so it would be 40 + 20 + 60-100 + 35 = 155-195 AD + 98 base AD without runes or masteries. So roughly 19.5% MPen in addition to the 10% Mpen Mastery that I also take so it would be 27.5% Mpen.

It isn't OP, but this could help make Hybrids more effective as an actual hybrid rather than spec'ing completely into AD or AP and losing some of their potential.


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Cronovey

Senior Member

07-18-2012

There are certain champions (Teemo, Kayle, Ezreal) that could potentially abuse this item, however.

An AD carry Ezreal who is also rocking close to 40% magic penetration, simply for building AD? That's terrifying.

Imagine a hybrid Kayle using this item.

Napkin math inc (literally on a Taco Bell napkin):

Say there's a tank with 200 Armor and 200 MR. Kayle has your item built, as well as a Void Staff, Last Whisper, Bloodthirster (stacked), Hextech Gunblade, and we'll say attack speed boots. Using an offensive mastery setup that takes the percent armor pen and magic pen, as well as the flat 6 armor pen masteries:

Kayle's Passive into account first since it shreds, which is applied first.

So 170 Armor and 170 MR after 15% shred.

Afterwards, we'll apply a rune setup using the hybrid runes. With masteries, 9 MPen and 21 ArmPen.

149 Armor, 161 MR.

Now the fun part. Items apply before masteries. With this build, 58% Armor Penetration from items and 60% even for Magic Penetration. This is assuming that items are additive (we don't really know how this works since it doesn't exist) while masteries are multiplicative, which is how it currently functions. Then the 10% from masteries, which takes 4.2% armor pen and 4% magic pen at this point.

62.2% armor penetration and 64% magic penetration.

56 Armor and 58 Magic Resist.

So Kayle, with just items, not counting the runes (yellows and blues) or her base AD (as your item did not specify bonus AD) has, including her passive shred, nearly 75% armor pen and magic pen. This build could be equally effective for other champions as well. Imagine an Ezreal bottom with a Kayle support. Same thing applies except that Ezreal also gets free attack speed.

As for the fact that it would be a glass cannon build, this doesn't account for champions like Kayle with heals (with AP factored from this build, about ~265 at level 18) and an ultimate that grants damage immunity.

Overall, this item could take some champions and make them so broken that the item would have to be nerfed to uselessness or removed from the game.

An excellent thought, but unfortunately unrealistic.


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
There are certain champions (Teemo, Kayle, Ezreal) that could potentially abuse this item, however.

An AD carry Ezreal who is also rocking close to 40% magic penetration, simply for building AD? That's terrifying.

Imagine a hybrid Kayle using this item.

Napkin math inc (literally on a Taco Bell napkin):

Say there's a tank with 200 Armor and 200 MR. Kayle has your item built, as well as a Void Staff, Last Whisper, Bloodthirster (stacked), Hextech Gunblade, and we'll say attack speed boots. Using an offensive mastery setup that takes the percent armor pen and magic pen, as well as the flat 6 armor pen masteries:

Kayle's Passive into account first since it shreds, which is applied first.

So 170 Armor and 170 MR after 15% shred.

Afterwards, we'll apply a rune setup using the hybrid runes. With masteries, 9 MPen and 21 ArmPen.

149 Armor, 161 MR.

Now the fun part. Items apply before masteries. With this build, 58% Armor Penetration from items and 60% even for Magic Penetration. This is assuming that items are additive (we don't really know how this works since it doesn't exist) while masteries are multiplicative, which is how it currently functions. Then the 10% from masteries, which takes 4.2% armor pen and 4% magic pen at this point.

62.2% armor penetration and 64% magic penetration.

56 Armor and 58 Magic Resist.

So Kayle, with just items, not counting the runes (yellows and blues) or her base AD (as your item did not specify bonus AD) has, including her passive shred, nearly 75% armor pen and magic pen. This build could be equally effective for other champions as well. Imagine an Ezreal bottom with a Kayle support. Same thing applies except that Ezreal also gets free attack speed.

As for the fact that it would be a glass cannon build, this doesn't account for champions like Kayle with heals (with AP factored from this build, about ~265 at level 18) and an ultimate that grants damage immunity.

Overall, this item could take some champions and make them so broken that the item would have to be nerfed to uselessness or removed from the game.

An excellent thought, but unfortunately unrealistic.
THe two things that make this not likely to be broken are the fact that you have to build glass cannon or darn near it to get the full effect from this item.

It is not really the most effective thing just stacking bloodthirsters without any real crit chance unless you are only powereing up abilities. Given that you could gain 100 ad or you could take 150 AD and double it part of the time. With the kayle build you just listed you would only get the magic pen up to 30% on Anuket's The armor pen would be at about 15% from it. You would be getting an extra 275 AD but you would not be getting much more use out of this build when attacking a carry which should be your main target.

There is also the issue of you actually being really squishy with no talk of armor or MR which means that you could survive for those three seconds of kayle's ult but would be really easy to kill after that. You would only have about 80 - 100 armor and 44 - 95 MR which is not going to keep you alive when you have to get within 525 range or closer to do basic attacks with your E active.

I don't think it would be broken given the huge measures and factors you are having to go through in order to make it sound broken.


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Cronovey

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaP616 View Post
THe two things that make this not likely to be broken are the fact that you have to build glass cannon or darn near it to get the full effect from this item.

It is not really the most effective thing just stacking bloodthirsters without any real crit chance unless you are only powereing up abilities. Given that you could gain 100 ad or you could take 150 AD and double it part of the time. With the kayle build you just listed you would only get the magic pen up to 30% on Anuket's The armor pen would be at about 15% from it. You would be getting an extra 275 AD but you would not be getting much more use out of this build when attacking a carry which should be your main target.

There is also the issue of you actually being really squishy with no talk of armor or MR which means that you could survive for those three seconds of kayle's ult but would be really easy to kill after that. You would only have about 80 - 100 armor and 44 - 95 MR which is not going to keep you alive when you have to get within 525 range or closer to do basic attacks with your E active.

I don't think it would be broken given the huge measures and factors you are having to go through in order to make it sound broken.
Yes, but look at what I said after. Imagine an Ezreal doing this build (he has items that scale off both AD and AP) with a Kayle support to shred for him. Between the heal, immunity, and his free Flash on a really short cooldown, Ezreal would be nigh unkillable while doing insane amounts of damage.

The item is just not balanced and very difficult to balance in general, which is why it doesn't exist right now.

You're more likely to see a flat penetration item for hybrids than percentage; most likely a Haunting Guise/Brutalizer combo.