Hybrid Penatration item concept - Anuket's Halberd

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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerabrete2 View Post
I know that you don't want to replace LW or VS. I was not suggesting this. I don't think anuket's will, but I think the current scaling would make the item fairly useless. Currently I see LW or VS just a better choice, even on hybrids. Switching the scaling would make this more viable.

One point I disagree with you a lot is that anukets should be able to stack with LW or VS. It is the hydrid version of those items, so the choice should have to be made between which one you want to get. In order to keep the balance of the game these should be a limit to how much %pen one can get. Imagine anuket's + LW +VS. Thats a lot of pen. I feel like this is one of those really tricky issues to deal with, so why even have the option.
Somehow I don't feel like you even read OP's last post. Right above yours. Percentage Penetration (%) for Armor AND Magic Resist is MULTIPLICATIVE, NOT ADDITIVE.
This means that 40% Armor Penetration from Last Whisper + say, 20% ArPen from Anuket's DOES NOT equal 60% Arpen. It would be 40%, plus 20% OF the remaining 60%, which would be 12%, for a WHOPPING GRAND TOTAL of 52% overall armor penetration (not counting runes/masteries) at the cost of two item slots and approximately 5k gold.
Assuming boots, you would only be left with three more items to build between some actual AD/AP, AS/CDR, and Health/Armor/Magic resist. And probably not a lot of gold to do it with. Basically at this point you will have the choice between reliably dealing moderate damage and exploding immediately on entering combat, or having some survivability while consistently dealing inconsequentially low amounts of damage.
This is high school level math btw.


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cerabrete2

Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
Somehow I don't feel like you even read OP's last post. Right above yours. Percentage Penetration (%) for Armor AND Magic Resist is MULTIPLICATIVE, NOT ADDITIVE.
This means that 40% Armor Penetration from Last Whisper + say, 20% ArPen from Anuket's DOES NOT equal 60% Arpen. It would be 40%, plus 20% OF the remaining 60%, which would be 12%, for a WHOPPING GRAND TOTAL of 52% overall armor penetration (not counting runes/masteries) at the cost of two item slots and approximately 5k gold.
Assuming boots, you would only be left with three more items to build between some actual AD/AP, AS/CDR, and Health/Armor/Magic resist. And probably not a lot of gold to do it with. Basically at this point you will have the choice between reliably dealing moderate damage and exploding immediately on entering combat, or having some survivability while consistently dealing inconsequentially low amounts of damage.
This is high school level math btw.
FYI i read the post, and know how to do math(), and still think its a tricky issue. Stacking %pen is something that is seen very rarely in the game. The way I see it, either stacking the pen is so beneficial it becomes impossible to effectively build tanky vs hybrids, or it just isn't good and noone would want to stack it. In the first case something would need to be done nerf it. In the later case its essentially unique. I just don't see what the issue is with not making it unique.

Also some math since you insist:
40% apen mean the tank gets to have 60% of their armor stat be effective. In order to have 100 effective armor they'd need 166 armor or 66% more armor.
Hypothetically if you had a 2nd item that stacked and also gave 40% apen then the total pen would be 64% since its multiplicative. This would let the tank keep only 36% of their armor. In order to have 100 effective armor they'd need 277 armor or 177% more armor.

As you can see the weight of each extra point of %pen is much great to the higher values. And even though its multiplicative the second %pen item has a much bigger impact than the first.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerabrete2 View Post
FYI i read the post, and know how to do math(), and still think its a tricky issue. Stacking %pen is something that is seen very rarely in the game. The way I see it, either stacking the pen is so beneficial it becomes impossible to effectively build tanky vs hybrids, or it just isn't good and noone would want to stack it. In the first case something would need to be done nerf it. In the later case its essentially unique. I just don't see what the issue is with not making it unique.

Also some math since you insist:
40% apen mean the tank gets to have 60% of their armor stat be effective. In order to have 100 effective armor they'd need 166 armor or 66% more armor.
Hypothetically if you had a 2nd item that stacked and also gave 40% apen then the total pen would be 64% since its multiplicative. This would let the tank keep only 36% of their armor. In order to have 100 effective armor they'd need 277 armor or 177% more armor.

As you can see even though though its multiplicative the the weight of each extra point of %pen is much great to the higher values.
Ah very good. Please don't think that I am trying to insult you personally, I just see a lot of dumb posts these days from people who don't bother to read before they type, making me wonder what they are doing in a forum when they should be on Twitter. The math summary was mostly for anyone else reading this thread and contemplating an ill-informed statement.
As far as Armor Pen is concerned, yes, this would mitigate a lot of armor. However, you are sacrificing raw AD and AS in order to build it. It's great to have your damage going through, but no good if you don't have damage to begin with. And attack speed is also crucial to your DPS, which is the bottom line for carries. Even if you were dealing True Damage, it wouldn't be at all menacing if you only had 100 AD at 1 attack per second at max level.
Next let's focus on survivability. Champions like Jax(THE hybrid posterchild) and Tryndamere(not a hybrid, but I find he plays in a very similar way). They can deal some NASTY damage and reap excellent sustain with Lifesteal (and Spellvamp in Jax's case). They are two of the strongest 1v1 fighters in the game, hands down. Both have excellent chasing ability and are hard (if not impossible) to escape. But what happens when they build full glass cannon, and try to enter a team fight? Instant nuke. The enemy team knows they deal damage, and lots of it, so they focus them with CC and burst damage, and melt them on the spot. This might just as well be a critique of melee carries in general, but really the point I am trying to illustrate is that without some kind of tankiness built, you can expect to be exploded as soon as you have the other team's attention.
Basically, just with the mechanics by which Anuket's scales, it would only be useful for hybrids, and only for an actual hybrid build at that. The whole point of a hybrid is to make things harder on tanks, who have way too easy a time as it is. If anything, I would argue that % penetration is the easiest to balance, because it will NEVER reduce the enemy's armor to zero, making it inherently weaker than Flat Pen against champs with low Resistance Values. As far as stacking it is concerned, the values as proposed are too low for an AD or AP to see any benefit from the item for their damage type, and hybrids cannot afford two percentage penetration items if they want to have any combination of damage and survivability in their final build.


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cerabrete2

Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
Basically, just with the mechanics by which Anuket's scales, it would only be useful for hybrids, and only for an actual hybrid build at that. The whole point of a hybrid is to make things harder on tanks, who have way too easy a time as it is. If anything, I would argue that % penetration is the easiest to balance, because it will NEVER reduce the enemy's armor to zero, making it inherently weaker than Flat Pen against champs with low Resistance Values. As far as stacking it is concerned, the values as proposed are too low for an AD or AP to see any benefit from the item for their damage type, and hybrids cannot afford two percentage penetration items if they want to have any combination of damage and survivability in their final build.
You make a good point about there being a sacrifice in raw damage output to be dealing more true damage, but this is outside of the point I am trying to make. I think its good to have some penetration to counter tanks, but the tanks should also be able to build items to counter this damage. If the penetration becomes too high then it makes the tanks no different than the ADC, so when they run into your team the hybrid champ can just nuke them down. As i pointed out before you don't need to reduce the armor to 0% to counter tanks. As you get close to 100% pen the amount of MR and Armor you need to build to counter damage increases very rapidly, outpacing the reduction in %pen for get subsequent items. I think that there probably exists a sweet spot where its neither too strong or too weak, but with the rapid scaling in effectiveness it will be very hard to find that sweet spot.

So why bother with that issue, when you got such an easy fix.


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerabrete2 View Post
You make a good point about there being a sacrifice in raw damage output to be dealing more true damage, but this is outside of the point I am trying to make. I think its good to have some penetration to counter tanks, but the tanks should also be able to build items to counter this damage. If the penetration becomes too high then it makes the tanks no different than the ADC, so when they run into your team the hybrid champ can just nuke them down. As i pointed out before you don't need to reduce the armor to 0% to counter tanks. As you get close to 100% pen the amount of MR and Armor you need to build to counter damage increases very rapidly, outpacing the reduction in %pen for get subsequent items. I think that there probably exists a sweet spot where its neither too strong or too weak, but with the rapid scaling in effectiveness it will be very hard to find that sweet spot.

So why bother with that issue, when you got such an easy fix.

If you find this damage to be a problem then build more health because this is not an attack against stacking health. What it is is a counter to stacking armor or MR.

If you have 300 armor and 2500 health and the enemy is doing 300 damage each attack with 60% armor pen it will do 136 damage from each hit you will die after 18 hits.

If you have 150 armor with 4000 HP and the enemy is doing 300 damage each attack with 60% armor pen you will take 187.5 damage each hit and 21.3 hits to get killed.

This would actually provide more reason to counter building if you think of it in the right way.


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JeeFour

Member

10-27-2012

@cerabrete2 from my earlier post: "... consider the 3 highest Magic Resist Items in the game, with Merc Treads equals 208 MR. While the 3 highest Armor Items in the game, with Ninja Tabi equals 299 Armor plus 10% reduced auto attack damage, along with other damage output reduction stats."

Those are just the bonus stats. Your concern of this being a counter to tanks, is the point of the item. Also, stacking % Pen items is the dumbest build concept you could have. Keep in mind that damage mitigation is calculated with percent Pen last. So, all the reductions (flat and percent) and flat penetration is first. % Pen items being the last line of defense means that the number of armor/magic resist you were referring to in your examples will be much lower. And effectively the % Pen items will reduce less of those stats (which is why stacking them is foolish, AND a waste of an item slot).

@ZaP616 I realized one stat change you should make. Reduce the base percent from 8% to 5%. Because as people are quoting the stats you get from the item it is at 10+%. But we are forgetting about base stats, and what level a champ would be at when he could afford this item. Meaning that those base stats, and runes, and masteries would put that percentage slightly higher. So, I think a base of 5 would result in roughly 10% Arm Pen and Magic Pen at the time of purchase of the item. Unless, you wanted the penetration to be higher at time of purchase?


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeeFour View Post
@cerabrete2 from my earlier post: "... consider the 3 highest Magic Resist Items in the game, with Merc Treads equals 208 MR. While the 3 highest Armor Items in the game, with Ninja Tabi equals 299 Armor plus 10% reduced auto attack damage, along with other damage output reduction stats."

Those are just the bonus stats. Your concern of this being a counter to tanks, is the point of the item. Also, stacking % Pen items is the dumbest build concept you could have. Keep in mind that damage mitigation is calculated with percent Pen last. So, all the reductions (flat and percent) and flat penetration is first. % Pen items being the last line of defense means that the number of armor/magic resist you were referring to in your examples will be much lower. And effectively the % Pen items will reduce less of those stats (which is why stacking them is foolish, AND a waste of an item slot).

@ZaP616 I realized one stat change you should make. Reduce the base percent from 8% to 5%. Because as people are quoting the stats you get from the item it is at 10+%. But we are forgetting about base stats, and what level a champ would be at when he could afford this item. Meaning that those base stats, and runes, and masteries would put that percentage slightly higher. So, I think a base of 5 would result in roughly 10% Arm Pen and Magic Pen at the time of purchase of the item. Unless, you wanted the penetration to be higher at time of purchase?

I have heard that they are planing to make flat pen apply after % pen in season three so he might noy be all that off.

As for the base % it isn't out of the question to lower it to 5% or even make it so that it has no base % pen if that proves to be the best option.

I mainly have a small base % pen so the item gives something more then just AD and AP once you get it. If it proves to not be good I'm sure that it would be changed.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaP616 View Post
If you find this damage to be a problem then build more health because this is not an attack against stacking health. What it is is a counter to stacking armor or MR.

If you have 300 armor and 2500 health and the enemy is doing 300 damage each attack with 60% armor pen it will do 136 damage from each hit you will die after 18 hits.

If you have 150 armor with 4000 HP and the enemy is doing 300 damage each attack with 60% armor pen you will take 187.5 damage each hit and 21.3 hits to get killed.

This would actually provide more reason to counter building if you think of it in the right way.
This, in so many words. Healthstacking is an excellent way to build if you want to sponge damage and still be able to walk away. Building Resistances alongside Health items is the best way to increase your overall survivability anyway. Building armor or magic resist without health is for scrublords. In fact, health stacking may currently be TOO viable with the recent nerf to DFG, essentially obliterating AP nukers IMO. And Madred's is way too expensive to be built in time to turn a game in your favor, in my limited experience. This might change somewhat if items like Blackfire Torch and Blade of the Ruined King are brought over into Summoner's Rift, but for now it seems to be a strong tactic.


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-30-2012

Even more condensed: allows for better counter building.


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HellfireSoul

Member

10-30-2012

Love this item idea. You put thought into it, and a lot of it. The fact that it uses reverse scaling on the penetrations is the big one.

I'm also all for it because I love playing Akali, but that's beside the point, really. The point is that the idea is great, and the numbers aren't even ungodly unbalanced in either direction, not that hard numbers should ever be a thing with suggestions. Remember, other people: Numbers can be adjusted, it's the concept that matters the most.