Hybrid Penatration item concept - Anuket's Halberd

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RockJockey

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Good work. I hope to see this item in-game some day. Functional yet, balanced so even Jax couldn't abuse this.

Rockjockey approves Hybrid Penetration.


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JeeFour

Member

10-25-2012

@Zap616 Added thoughts...

Wouldn't this item inherently cause hybrids to be too overpowered? Not saying the numbers are the reason, but because the way the item is designed it encourages players to build in such a way that some scenarios will result in turning a tank into a squishy.

Example: Combining Lich Bane, Last Whisper, and a Deathcap, it appears (on paper) that you would be putting out insane amounts of damage. A tank stacking either defensive stat would be getting stomped on, because your existence means that he has to become a hybrid tank. Which I guess isn't a bad thing.

Come to think of it, if you modified the scaling and nerfed the item a bit, it would still do it's job. Reason being the above example. By a hybrid champion choosing this item it would force tanks to weigh out who is most threatening on the battlefield, and therefore forcing them into a hybrid tank build, inherently making the damage from your carries become more effective. A balanced build on any hybrid would not cause balance issues, but stacking one way or another is simply inverting the stats so you are in essence creating a hybrid out of ANY champion. Example: Tryndamere building AP with critical damage and cooldown reduction runes. He would heal like a boss and penetrate tanks like a boss.

Also consider the 3 highest Magic Resist Items in the game, with Merc Treads equals 208 MR. While the 3 highest Armor Items in the game, with Ninja Tabi equals 299 Armor plus 10% reduced auto attack damage, along with other damage output reduction stats. Armor Pen should scale differently from Magic Pen. Possibly adjusting the base percentage and scaling on both, yet independently of each other could fix this issue. As it stands now, the item grants roughly 10% of both penetrations, only calculating bonus stats from the item. I didn't look too much into it, but I don't feel as though the current numbers would scale well through the game. I get a feeling this is similar to the recent issue Riot had with Deathfire Grasp. It's purpose was to tackle late game tanks, and it's design inherently made it a nuke, which was not it's purpose.

Lastly, I think the build and cost should be modified. I was thinking Brutilizer + (New Magic Pen Item [similar to Haunting Guise]) = Anuket's Halberd. It gives the hybrid champ better scaling through the course of the game. Flat Penetration is stronger early-mid game, so to have it build into a stronger percentage based Penetration for late game, just makes sense. The price would end up being roughly 3k gold, but this would be the crown jewel of hybrids, so to have it cost similarly to a Bloodthirster or RoA or Rylai's, makes sense to me, personally. Hextech Gunblade is 3625g for a hybrid sustain item, comparatively.

Hope to see some feedback, I love this item, and really wanna see something come of it.

Cheers.

Edit: the percentages in the 2nd to last paragraph were based on the first stats listed in your original post. Not the proposed changes at the bottom of it.


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

10-25-2012

That is one thing to be considered. But due to the fact that if you are building mainly AP with Anukets you will not have a huge amount of magic penatration.

This is a soldi point and does bring up a question of if it is better to have the magic penetration based on the base and bonus damage or if it should be changed to being only bonus damage to prevent potential abuse of the item.

I don't for see it being that broken but it is only through testing that real numbers could be applied that are ideal for the item.

I have this labeled only as a concept because it is more of guidelines then anything else.

THe reason why it is not Brutilizer + Haunting Guise or like items is because those are flat pen. It isn't common for Riot to change one stat to another when building say a phage into a triforce.

If you have an enemy with 250 armor and 175 MR you are doing roughly 36.4% physical damage and about 48.7% magic damage after reductions from this item.

The current setup is that if you build Anuket's and LW you are not getting much in the way of actual stats other then the penatration with 2 item slots. if you were getting 60 AP and 120 AD from these two items then it would be a much bigger problem but as it stands neither is much more then a item good for dealing with certain situations.

If an enemy has 300 armor these items are far effective for what they do then against an enemy with 100 armor.


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JeeFour

Member

10-25-2012

What do you think of the cost and build changes?


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

10-25-2012

The build change is already stated as for the price that is still somewhat up in the air which is why I went with something a little above what void staff and LW cost.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

10-26-2012

It's a nice item.

The only issue I have with it is that people would perhaps just do better just to get Last Whisper and Void Staff.

Last Whisper/Void Staff
40% armor pen, +40 AD
40% magic pen, +70 AP

Anuket's Halberd
10.5% armor pen, +35 AD (+2.5 from the item's AP)
10.3% magic pen, +50 AP (+2.3 from the item's AD)

Although, I can see Anuket's + Last Whisper on Jax, and Anuket's + Void Staff on Akali.
ALW = 50.5% armor pen, 13% magic pen, 75 AD, 50 AP
AVS = 50.3% magic pen, 14.5% armor pen, 35 AD, 130 AP


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

10-26-2012

It is intended to give some % pen on both magic and physical. If you get more then one % pen item you get reduced returns and less actual stats.


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THEMathKid98

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Member

10-26-2012

% pen stacks additively. However, given how much ap it would take to get to 30%armor pen, Tanks will laugh at your near true damage auto attacks because you won't deal significant phisical damage with you LW+4 ap items.


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

10-26-2012

No it is multiplicative so if you have a Darius with 30% on anuket's, 40% from last whisper, 10% from Weapon Expertise and his 25% from his E you could have 71.65% armor pen (not 105% armor pen)

if you need proof then go build last whisper on Darius with E being leveled no runes or masteries, once it is level 5 and you have LW you will have 55% armor pen meaning that it is not additive which would would resulted in 65% armor pen.


That being said this build would be a complete joke having little to no actual survivability on a champ that is suppose to be fairly tanky as well as not much AD to tank advantage of the high % armor pen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3mptylord View Post
It's a nice item.

The only issue I have with it is that people would perhaps just do better just to get Last Whisper and Void Staff.

Last Whisper/Void Staff
40% armor pen, +40 AD
40% magic pen, +70 AP

Anuket's Halberd
10.5% armor pen, +35 AD (+2.5 from the item's AP)
10.3% magic pen, +50 AP (+2.3 from the item's AD)

Although, I can see Anuket's + Last Whisper on Jax, and Anuket's + Void Staff on Akali.
ALW = 50.5% armor pen, 13% magic pen, 75 AD, 50 AP
AVS = 50.3% magic pen, 14.5% armor pen, 35 AD, 130 AP
The thing is that I am trying to make an item that is not good to stack with LW or VS. No where have I said that I wnat something that is a must buy item. I want something like Gunblade where it is not bought that often because it doesn't work the best for most champs. If I was just out for a little armor or magic pen then I would have just gone for the Brutilizer + Haunting Guise as the build but hybrids rarely have any issues with squishy champs. It is the tanks that they just can't damage enough to take down after getting the carries or in those game where there are no real squishies that is what I am aiming for with this item.

The goal if this item is to provide hybrids with some degree of dealing with a tanky enemy.

That being said if they were to have a hybrid flat pen item put out along side this then you might see Akali have a huge rise in popularity.


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cerabrete2

Member

10-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaP616 View Post
I am not trying to replace LW or Void staff when they are clearly the best option for a given champion. If you had anukets magic pen scale with AP then everyone would get it with Void staff for 58% penetration while building a Deathcap and 2 other AP items say athene's and RoA resulting in building magic resist, for a lack of a better explanation, a joke.
I know that you don't want to replace LW or VS. I was not suggesting this. I don't think anuket's will, but I think the current scaling would make the item fairly useless. Currently I see LW or VS just a better choice, even on hybrids. Switching the scaling would make this more viable.

One point I disagree with you a lot is that anukets should be able to stack with LW or VS. It is the hydrid version of those items, so the choice should have to be made between which one you want to get. In order to keep the balance of the game these should be a limit to how much %pen one can get. Imagine anuket's + LW +VS. Thats a lot of pen. I feel like this is one of those really tricky issues to deal with, so why even have the option.