Hybrid Penatration item concept - Anuket's Halberd

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Irelia Bot

Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerabrete2 View Post
I don't see the point of having the AD/AP scaling for the item. It forces you to build both, AD and AP, but also deters you from getting this item. If you you were siding a little more AD then you get the MPEN that is useless to you and vice versa. You could just get buy a Last Whisper/Void Staff that out preform this item completely and would help your higher stat.
Also this item gives only 8% of each penetration with no AP/AD which is compared to the 40% from VS/LW is very low. Its 24% less in total and 32% less in the respective pen, which may be the more useful one depending on the champion. I don't see any incentive to get this over VS/LW unless you have really high stats from 4-5 items.

Example 1:
I currently have 300AP 100AD
Clearly I'd going to do much more magic damage with my current build.
I get 30%APEN and 16%MPEN for this item
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Void staff.

Example 2:
I currently have 300AP 100AD
Clearly I'm going to do much more magic damage with my current build.
If scaled with complimentary stat I get 16%APEN and 30%MPEN for this item.
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Anuket's Halberd. I get a good amount of MPEN which I need and some APEN for my small amount of AD I have.

Example 3:
I currently have 300AP 0AD
I going to do only magic damage like most AP Casters.
I get 30%APEN and 8%MPEN for this item
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Void staff.

Example 4:
I currently have 300AP 0AD
I going to do only magic damage like most AP Casters.
If scaled with complimentary stat I get 8%APEN and 30%MPEN for this item.
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Void staff.


Make the penetration scale with the complimentary stat (MPEN with AP, APEN with AD). Prevent this from stacking with Void Staff and Last Whisper. Increase the base penetration a bit (%PEN is gonna be less than flat early/mid game so its OK) .
The issue is that if it doesn't have scaling for on what what stat doesn't power it will have to not stack with LW and VS.

THe other is that it would likely be built just to have lich bane procs do more damage which is not really forcing a hybrid build.

A large part of the reason for the scaling is that it allows for the item to stack with LW and void staff if you so feel the need to and you could still get a decent amount of AD and AP with a glass cannon build.

I'm not trying to make it impossible to to use this in may ways but I am trying to make a price to be paid for such a choice as a glass cannon build.

IT also makes it a situational late game item instead of a required mid game item like LW or Black cleaver basically is for an ADC.


But to respond to all your examples.

1) this is likely a good time to build void staff. Nothing is forcing you to build this item.

2) If you make it get more magic pen from AP and the same for armor pen with AD then you have turned it from a hybrid item that is only good on hybrids into an item that can be good on anyone even Riven. It would be an alright item be not an item that is better then LW or VS by any means.

3) same as answer 1 why would you get anuket's in this situation when you want % magic pen. This item is not better for pure AP or AD champs it is ideal for hybrids building a good amout of both AD and AP.

4) same as 1 and 3.


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pro crastinat0r

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Hybrid Pen! RAGE! Broke! RAGE! jk

Seems like a solid item +1 OP


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cerabrete2

Member

10-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaP616 View Post
The issue is that if it doesn't have scaling for on what what stat doesn't power it will have to not stack with LW and VS.

THe other is that it would likely be built just to have lich bane procs do more damage which is not really forcing a hybrid build.

A large part of the reason for the scaling is that it allows for the item to stack with LW and void staff if you so feel the need to and you could still get a decent amount of AD and AP with a glass cannon build.

I'm not trying to make it impossible to to use this in may ways but I am trying to make a price to be paid for such a choice as a glass cannon build.

IT also makes it a situational late game item instead of a required mid game item like LW or Black cleaver basically is for an ADC.


But to respond to all your examples.

1) this is likely a good time to build void staff. Nothing is forcing you to build this item.

2) If you make it get more magic pen from AP and the same for armor pen with AD then you have turned it from a hybrid item that is only good on hybrids into an item that can be good on anyone even Riven. It would be an alright item be not an item that is better then LW or VS by any means.

3) same as answer 1 why would you get anuket's in this situation when you want % magic pen. This item is not better for pure AP or AD champs it is ideal for hybrids building a good amout of both AD and AP.

4) same as 1 and 3.
It sounds like you are in agreement with me for these example. The point being that with a 30% pen cap and scaling from a lower value the 40% from LW/VS will always be better for non-hybrid build. Even if you started with max penetration there would be little worry of non-hybrid champions purchasing anuket's. So you can conclude that anuket's will remain an item for hybrid builds.

I understand that you want to give people the flexability to build anukets and LW or VS, but I feel this could cause problems as well. Having access too this much %pen may prove to be broken(end-game hybrid champ with 70%Apen and Mpen 2-shotting tanks), or people will find no need purchase more than 1 penetration item(which i believe is more likely). For this reason I am suggesting to make this not stack with either LW or VS.

My other suggestion is that you make the scaling come from the complimentary stat(Apen scales with AD, and Mpen scales with AP). This would benefit hybrid builds a lot more in my opinion, since they have more choice about how they want to build items and allow them to go a little more AD or AP heavy. There is still going to be a choice to be made if at the two extremes since LW and VS will outclass anuket's for pure AD or AP build. One problem with this change is that if you can stack this with LW or VS for pure builds which may be problematic, but this can be prevented by allowing the item to not stack with LW or VS.

In conclusion these changes will allow the item to be useful to a wider range of hydrid champions and builds, while still being less beneficial than LW for VS for pure AD and AP build.


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Serial Warder

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Senior Member

10-19-2012

Sounds like a really broken item in my opinion. If this ever did get approved or made in general you'd see huge nerfs to the champions themselves. In other words hybrids would no longer be viable champions in play. They already benefit strongly from items like the Hextech Gunblade and Guinsoos Rageblade, their base damage and ability scaling is far higher than most champions as well.


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerabrete2 View Post
It sounds like you are in agreement with me for these example. The point being that with a 30% pen cap and scaling from a lower value the 40% from LW/VS will always be better for non-hybrid build. Even if you started with max penetration there would be little worry of non-hybrid champions purchasing anuket's. So you can conclude that anuket's will remain an item for hybrid builds.

I understand that you want to give people the flexability to build anukets and LW or VS, but I feel this could cause problems as well. Having access too this much %pen may prove to be broken(end-game hybrid champ with 70%Apen and Mpen 2-shotting tanks), or people will find no need purchase more than 1 penetration item(which i believe is more likely). For this reason I am suggesting to make this not stack with either LW or VS.

My other suggestion is that you make the scaling come from the complimentary stat(Apen scales with AD, and Mpen scales with AP). This would benefit hybrid builds a lot more in my opinion, since they have more choice about how they want to build items and allow them to go a little more AD or AP heavy. There is still going to be a choice to be made if at the two extremes since LW and VS will outclass anuket's for pure AD or AP build. One problem with this change is that if you can stack this with LW or VS for pure builds which may be problematic, but this can be prevented by allowing the item to not stack with LW or VS.

In conclusion these changes will allow the item to be useful to a wider range of hydrid champions and builds, while still being less beneficial than LW for VS for pure AD and AP build.
I am not agreeing with you. I am saying that it is not going to be a better item for champs that mainly build AD or AP. If someone wants Anukets with LW and/or VS they will have to pay a price to do so.

I am not trying to replace LW or Void staff when they are clearly the best option for a given champion. If you had anukets magic pen scale with AP then everyone would get it with Void staff for 58% penetration while building a Deathcap and 2 other AP items say athene's and RoA resulting in building magic resist, for a lack of a better explanation, a joke.

If you make them not stack then no one will but the item other then hybrids because anukets would just be a waste of an item slot.

I'm not saying that someone can't build anukets and VS/LW I just want to make sure a price is being paid for doing so. If you are a super fed nuking akali and you want to get 2 of these % pen items and can get away with it more power to you but if you are going to do so then you will have to give up on some things like health or armor/MR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Seran View Post
Sounds like a really broken item in my opinion. If this ever did get approved or made in general you'd see huge nerfs to the champions themselves. In other words hybrids would no longer be viable champions in play. They already benefit strongly from items like the Hextech Gunblade and Guinsoos Rageblade, their base damage and ability scaling is far higher than most champions as well.
The fact is that we haven't even seen this item in the beta or anything like that. The numbers can still be ajustied but having gone up against teams with high amounts of armor and MR hybrids just tend to have nothing they can do about it other then go either AD or AP.

As I stated in the OP most hybrid builds these days seem to be something like Akali with Lich bane. That isn't really building hybrid and with a lack of good hybrid items in the game that will not change any time soon.


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Zanes theNArgent

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Anuket's Halberd.

I deem it a real weapon.


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-23-2012

Bump


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I think OP is onto something here. Most hybrid champs are predominantly AP for the damage potential. Built AD, they cannot outdamage pure AD champs, nor should they be able to. But an item like Anuket's would allow for good damage of both types to get through on a hybrid build, which might allow hybrids to offset the currently overwhelming tanky dps meta by forcing tanks/bruisers to invest in both resistances or stack health, which can be countered with an appropriate item build.


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Sonic Nova

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I have to say that the stats are not overpowered and seems like a great item for any hybrid, I can see Jax or Akali getting one helluva punch with it.


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RAPMEX

Member

10-24-2012

Bump