Leona: Comprehensive Discussion

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eydolon

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichod View Post
Then usually after her combo is done again she can snare again and stun again. With all those combos on just a single champion that is 840+/- magic damage with just her passive. And keep in mind since 2 of her spells are aoe that is another possible 1400+/- magic damage on the whole team. And don't say you can't land your aoe on the whole team because I do it all the time.
First, its a lie that you can land it on the whole enemy teams always... a good ult can be used against 3 enemies at most. Yes u can land it on the whole team, but they have to be so clustered that they must be REALLY bad at positioning to do that.

The damage example u are giving are with "optimal" procsing of her passive... and guess what? that is almost impossible in a real teamfight situatin where u want to snare as much as possible one target and you can even waste a lot of procs chain comboing ur skills.

On paper it looks like godly, but in reality it isnt. Her passive really shines in drawn out battles when u are able to mark ur enemies constantly with sunlight while ur other teammates who are still in the fight can continue procsing it, resulting in more dmg in the long run.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nichod

Senior Member

11-14-2012

I didn't say always. I'm saying that you can. And if you can't hit your ulti and/or your shield on all the team you have issues. You should be able to easily hit your ulti and/or your shield. The best time to do the combo is when you are counter initiating. Meaning when there team starts the engagement and are grouped up trying to take down your carries.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nichod

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eydolon View Post
The best 2 suggestions i have read are to change eclipse to an AOE persistent aura, and let her passive stack.
The only bad thing about being an aura is that she becomes practically amumu 2.0. Its sad, but this change would make her sooo much better. Keep the dmg it does on the explosion, but instead let her do it over time. And making a toogling ability lets her keep her defenses up as long as her mana lets her. Its a good trade IMO, because her mana costs are not cheap.

And again...riot doesnt want her to pop her own sunlight, so suggestiing that is futile until we know riot thinks otherwise.
As I said. She doesn't really need changes. She does so much damage and cc as she currently stands. She is one of my favorite bottom supports.

Actually after more thought the only thing I'd really like to see changed is her base speed slightly increased. Forget her popping her own sunlight. Leona is VERY slow. Really that's the only problem I have is keeping up with the team. Sometimes I even get boots of swiftness just to help with that problem, but that is a big risk and reduction in tankyness/cd.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MrFisterRoboto

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichod View Post
As I said. She doesn't really need changes. She does so much damage and cc as she currently stands. She is one of my favorite bottom supports.

Actually after more thought the only thing I'd really like to see changed is her base speed slightly increased. Forget her popping her own sunlight. Leona is VERY slow. Really that's the only problem I have is keeping up with the team. Sometimes I even get boots of swiftness just to help with that problem, but that is a big risk and reduction in tankyness/cd.
I like Leona as well, but the fact remains that she is almost never seen in serious ranked/high level play. Her kit pales in comparison to other tanks/support. Slow speed, laughable damage, passive that requires a teammate, I think it just adds up to making her a rare sight on the battlefield. There has to be a reason to pick her instead of Blitz, Ali, Soraka, Sona. As it stands now, there's not much of one.

A few reworks and she'd be seen a lot more often, which I think is the goal of this thread.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aurasai

Member

11-14-2012

Ok, how about these changes:
Sunlight (passive)
old
Leona's spells charge any enemy unit damaged with Sunlight for 3.5 seconds. When allied champions deal any damage to those targets they consume the Sunlight debuff to deal 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 125 / 140 additional magic damage. This additional damage is counted as the ally's damage and it will benefit from their magic penetration. Leona is unable to activate the additional damage herself.
new
Sunburn (passive)
Leona's spells charge an enemy unit with Sunburn for 2 seconds. Over the duration of the effect targets with sunburn have their magic resistance and armor reduced by 8 and take 10/15/20/25/30/35 (level 1/6/9/12/15/18) (+5% of AP) magic damage each second. Stacks up to 3 times.

Eclipse (W)
old:
Cooldown: 14
Cost: 60 mana
Active: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. When the effect ends she deals damage to enemies within 275 range of her. If Eclipse damages any enemies, the bonuses remain for an additional 3 seconds.

Armor, magic resistance: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70
Magic damage: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 40% AP)
new:
Cooldown: 10
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. After 2 seconds she deals damage to enemies within 275 range of her. If Eclipse damages any enemies, 1 additional second is added to the duration, dealing damage again and consuming 10 mana. This abillity can be toggled off.

Armor, magic resistance: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70
Magic damage: 20 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 90 (+ 10% AP)

Zenith Blade(E)
old:
Range: 700
Cooldown: 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona projects a solar image of her sword, dealing damage to all enemies in a line. Leona will dash to the last enemy champion struck, briefly immobilizing it as she does.

Magic damage: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 40% AP)

new:
Range: 700
Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona projects a solar image of her sword, dealing damage to all enemies in a line and immobilizing them and marking the last enemy champion stuck giving vision for 1 second. Leona may activate this abillity again to dash to the marked enemy champion, instantly attacking the target and consuming the mark. Upon activation, or after the mark expires the spell goes on cooldown.

Magic damage: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 40% AP)

A few words behind every change:
Passive: dealing the same damage when alone as with an ally (just slower) allows her to go where she wants to go, and farm effectively. It helps Riot keep on the faulted idea of her passive not being a Lux's clone.

W: the passive element makes jungle easier, and gives her some free armor+mres, wich can allways come in handy. Note again: these bonus armor+mres are not in effect when Eclipse is activated! It is explained in great detail why a Amumu-ish DoT is needed. The scaling and damage is slightly higher than before considering counting it for 3 seconds (3 times). The abillity can be toggled off for obvious reasons. Ofc the cooldown starts after this abillity gets on cooldown, and for this reason it is lowered by 4 seconds. The trick here is that to keep this abillity on Leona must stay in the fight, dealing damage with Eclipse to at least 1 target each second! The 2 second delay is to help Leona stay hidden when setting an ambush/ganking, and to make positioning the AOE easier.

E: A big problem with Leona i am pretty sure many have noticed is willing to take the risk of engaging in a blind battle. Giving vision to the target and making you think "is it worth taking the risk?" is focused in this exact problem. Note: the vision on target does not reveal stealthed targets, but you can still dash to them... without the idea where exactly! It only reveals them briefly (about 0,25 sec) when they first take damage and at the moment you dash to them. You can activate this abillity at the exact moment it hits the target, or you can wait for it, trading the quicker use when the cooldown is off for a few moments to think. This is partly the reason why the cooldown is lowered by a second. Again explained why a immobilize on all targets is needed in previous posts!

So any feedback?? If you don't understand any part of the suggestions... ASK!!!
edit: 10 % AP bonus damage on passive per second is actually pretty high so i replaced it with 5
edit 2: Duration on mark on last hit enemy champion set to 1 second from 1,5.
edit 3: Allied champions trigger a single stack, other than the remaining damage of the passive. Allso i think Sunburn is a more fitting name.
edit 4: changed Leona's damage on the passive. The damage from ally on activation is unchanged.
edit 5: changed Leona's passive... again. The ally damage is replaced with damage increase available to all. Duration reduced to 2 sec. Removed passive bonuses on Eclipse and reduced the AP rate to 10% per second.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nichod

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFisterRoboto View Post
I like Leona as well, but the fact remains that she is almost never seen in serious ranked/high level play. Her kit pales in comparison to other tanks/support. Slow speed, laughable damage, passive that requires a teammate, I think it just adds up to making her a rare sight on the battlefield. There has to be a reason to pick her instead of Blitz, Ali, Soraka, Sona. As it stands now, there's not much of one.

A few reworks and she'd be seen a lot more often, which I think is the goal of this thread.
I don't think she isn't seen in high level ranked because she isn't good. It's the same reason many other champions aren't seen. People stick with what works. But I can see that I'm not going to convince anyone in this thread. But for riot's thread view let it be known I think Leona is one of the few nicely balanced champions and she would do well at higher elo if played.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

invincible13matt

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichod View Post
I don't think she isn't seen in high level ranked because she isn't good.
How narrow-minded. This isn't about a champion being good or bad, underpowered or overpowered. It's about the fact that her design is terrible for her intended role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Ok, how about these changes:
Sunlight (passive)

Leona's spells charge an enemy unit with damaged with Sunlight for 3 seconds. Over the duration of the effect target takes 10/15/20/25/30/35/40/45 (+5% of AP) magic damage each second. Stacks up to 3 times. When an allied champion deal any damage to the target he deals magic damage equal to the remaining damage to be dealt to the enemy unit, consuming all stacks. This additional damage is counted as the ally's damage and it will benefit from their magic penetration. Leona is unable to activate the additional damage herself.
This is a rather clumsy design. There isn't a reason to keep the "triggered by allies" part of the ability; it doesn't serve any real purpose being adding text and programming complexity to the skill. Why does it have to stay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Eclipse (W)
new:
Cooldown: 10
Cost: 60 mana
Passive: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance. While this spell is active she loses these bonus stats.

Armor, magic resistance: 5/10/15/20/25

Active: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. After 2 seconds she deals damage to enemies within 275 range of her. If Eclipse damages any enemies, 1 additional second is added to the duration, dealing damage again and consuming 10 mana. This abillity can be toggled off.
Overly complicated, but at least better than what it is currently. There isn't a real reason to disable the passive armor/MR boost in favor of a comparatively tiny one (the only other champ who can actually reduce their stats like this is Taric, as far as I know, and he at least forces the same reduction on the enemy while still retaining full half of the bonus), and the raw values of 30 armor/MR at the beginning of the game is stupid high. Make it a smaller flat bonus that goes up while it's active and it makes more sense and is actually fun to use - instead of saddling the player with the ever present conundrum of "do I want to live or do damage?" This kind of thing is why they switched which part of the Armor Bonus Taric dropped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Zenith Blade(E)
new:
Range: 700
Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona projects a solar image of her sword, dealing damage to all enemies in a line and immobilizing them and marking the last enemy champion stuck giving vision for 1,5 seconds. Leona may activate this abillity again to dash to the marked enemy champion, instantly attacking the target and consuming the mark. Upon activation, or after the mark expires the spell goes on cooldown.
An unnecessary change. There's nothing wrong with Zenith Blade as it is - eliminating the possibility of a blind battle is what wards are for. That and expecting the worst from every bush.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aurasai

Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
This is a rather clumsy design. There isn't a reason to keep the "triggered by allies" part of the ability; it doesn't serve any real purpose being adding text and programming complexity to the skill. Why does it have to stay?
Personally the design i suggested was a passive being triggered by Leona or someone else doing the exact same effect instantly (see page 12, this design you are seeing here is not mine).
Not sure if you have noticed but Leona is still widely played, and most people who don't like a champion, just don't play him/her. A large number of Leona's players who still stick to her (and most of the people posting in this thread)... in fact... nearly everyone... play her at bot lane and actually do believe her place is there and not somewhere else. If you think Leona is faulted concept, move on and don't bother with her. Don't expect the perfect champion to be made by your personal liking. When posting a suggestion you need to look at current design, is a champion actually having positive feedback, current playstyle and actual opinion of the design team for the sayd champion. I think the one being narrow minded here is you. This concept is a consensus to these sayd factors that would make her be accepted by a larger majority of players! It is curently allowing her to be played at any lane the player seems to take like in, based on their personal choice, contributing to the "fun" factor - wich is basicly the reason video games exist!


Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Overly complicated, but at least better than what it is currently. There isn't a real reason to disable the passive armor/MR boost in favor of a comparatively tiny one (the only other champ who can actually reduce their stats like this is Taric, as far as I know, and he at least forces the same reduction on the enemy while still retaining full half of the bonus), and the raw values of 30 armor/MR at the beginning of the game is stupid high. Make it a smaller flat bonus that goes up while it's active and it makes more sense and is actually fun to use - instead of saddling the player with the ever present conundrum of "do I want to live or do damage?" This kind of thing is why they switched which part of the Armor Bonus Taric dropped.
Speaking of overly complicated... look at your comment. Let me say it in a simpler way:
Rank 5 on Eclipse: Leona has 25 bonus armor+mres. Activate Eclipse... Leona has 70 bonus armor+mres. After 2 seconds of activation you do damage, effect is extended by 1 more second, after 1 more second you do damage, effect is extended by 1 second, etc... You fail to hit anyone with Eclipse/toggle it off... after 1 second effect ends dealing no more damage... spell goes on cooldown... you get +25 armor+mres again. Every action has to have a consequence. If you are diying no one is forcing you to stay in the fight to keep Eclipse up instead of running away.
The passive armor+mres works good if you are jungle or bot lane. You won't win every game at bot lane, the lack of an early sustain being common to all supports (don't start with exceptions, we are talking of Leona here) is replaced by a little passive armor vs the enemy right clicker, and mres wich can come in handy in some situations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
An unnecessary change. There's nothing wrong with Zenith Blade as it is - eliminating the possibility of a blind battle is what wards are for. That and expecting the worst from every bush.
And how about if you are badly geared or there isn't a ward on every brush in the map? How about if Leona is at bot lane without the gear for being a proper tank. Small sight on the marked target, is 1 more supportive element that would be greatly accepted. Saving 2-3 wards for 5-10 minutes mid-lategame will help Leona get some better gear from time to time. By small sight i mean granting vision of the sayd target and only to things in "character colision" range of it, similar to Elise's E (human form). Another very important change on Zenith Blade, is that it allows for Leona to stay on her current target, while having a second short cooldown skill (with cdr) to use in a teamfight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
How narrow-minded. This isn't about a champion being good or bad, underpowered or overpowered. It's about the fact that her design is terrible for her intended role.
Actually this is about a possible rework, that doesn't change the way a champion is being played by the majority of its playerbase, but adding more depth while fixing the major issues. (again see the 1st part of this reply) Everyone can sit whole day *****ing about how the world should work, but making the realistic solution to something is the hard part.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Onimallar

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Allowing her passive to stack, would give more viability for her allies to do damage without missing one, but that doesn't help her that much.

I'd rather see a 1 second BLIND after each attack hits the enemy. Similar to Noc ult / graves grenade. it's sunlight, BLIND em.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

invincible13matt

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
If you think Leona is faulted concept, move on and don't bother with her.
You clearly have no measure of how I am. Something this poorly designed is something I cannot let lie, even with full knowledge that nothing we say here will make any difference in how they will change Leona.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Don't expect the perfect champion to be made by your personal liking. When posting a suggestion you need to look at current design, is a champion actually having positive feedback, current play style and actual opinion of the design team for the said champion. I think the one being narrow minded here is you.
Why do I have to kowtow to the design team and the majority? Why do I have to keep a champion in the role they are currently in?

If you hadn't noticed, all/most of the past remakes of champions have resulted in a shift of their role. Why? Because their kits were flawed in the first place and needed a change. A champ having changes made to their kit will lose something by necessity - or the design gets cluttered, hard to balance, and/or overpowered.

Restricting yourself to changes that do not alter Leona's supporting power is a limited approach. In reality, a loss of her "support" aspect is likely desirable if you are one of the people who actually want her to be the tank she supposed to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
This concept is a consensus to these said factors that would make her be accepted by a larger majority of players! It is currently allowing her to be played at any lane the player seems to take like in, based on their personal choice, contributing to the "fun" factor - which is basically the reason video games exist!
Honestly, I don't care how many people play her. At the moment, I don't even care if she's "good" after the remake - that is a priority that comes after making her an actual tank, when the large sample size provided by the testing allows an adequate assessment of the strengths of her new kit.

Remember new Evelyn? How people thought the changes to her kit made her worse? Where is she now?

It's important to remember, "If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Speaking of overly complicated... look at your comment.
It's not that bad. >_> I can actually go pedantic if you want me to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Let me say it in a simpler way:
Rank 5 on Eclipse: Leona has 25 bonus armor+mres. Activate Eclipse... Leona has 70 bonus armor+mres. After 2 seconds of activation you do damage, effect is extended by 1 more second, after 1 more second you do damage, effect is extended by 1 second, etc... You fail to hit anyone with Eclipse/toggle it off... after 1 second effect ends dealing no more damage... spell goes on cooldown... you get +25 armor+mres again. Every action has to have a consequence. If you are dying no one is forcing you to stay in the fight to keep Eclipse up instead of running away.
The passive armor+mres works good if you are jungle or bot lane. You won't win every game at bot lane, the lack of an early sustain being common to all supports (don't start with exceptions, we are talking of Leona here) is replaced by a little passive armor vs the enemy right clicker, and mres wich can come in handy in some situations.
I muddled the numbers between the old and new Eclipse when making the edits to the quote. The way I read it, a non-active Eclipse gave 30/40/50/60/70 Armor/MR and an active one gave 5/10/15/20/25...you can see how this would be a little silly.

In any case, the numbers are low but I don't care about that yet. There's no reason you couldn't have just worded it as "Leona gains 25/30/35/40/45 Armor/MR" instead of deactivating a passive buff in favor of a larger active buff, which is what I meant by over complicated. It's less steps to do it that way and therefore more elegant.

I think it should be a constant pulse (rather than what I think is a shrinking interval between the first and second pulses?) and I don't see why it's not just a raw toggle rather than something with a cooldown and condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
And how about if you are badly geared or there isn't a ward on every brush in the map? How about if Leona is at bot lane without the gear for being a proper tank. Small sight on the marked target, is 1 more supportive element that would be greatly accepted. Saving 2-3 wards for 5-10 minutes mid-lategame will help Leona get some better gear from time to time. By small sight i mean granting vision of the sayd target and only to things in "character colision" range of it, similar to Elise's E (human form). Another very important change on Zenith Blade, is that it allows for Leona to stay on her current target, while having a second short cooldown skill (with cdr) to use in a teamfight.
Then you take the risk, same as everyone else. Put up your shield, walk in and hope you can suck it up. This isn't a problem unique to Leona, it's just a consequence of blind areas on the map. What you're doing is overloading Leona's kit. There's certainly no need to do that.

Your changes don't alter Zenith Blade's ability to keep Leona attached to a target. Only the reduced cool down does that, and that doesn't require your changes.