Leona: Comprehensive Discussion

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invincible13matt

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
I would say Malphite as a viable option for a tank. He is very similar to Leona... use cooldowns, autoattack and derp arround till they are back. True he gains a very small splash damage on autoattacks, however Leona's cooldowns are much shorter than his (considering cdr is a part of your build), in fact much shorter than most tanks.
The problem with your argument is that Malphite wasn't intended to be a tank, so his design doesn't reflect that - he just wound up being better as a tank, much as how Leona was intended to be a tank but came out as a support. He was an early fighter...but it didn't really work out, which is something you see a lot in the early champions - some of their designs are just not that good.

In any case, Malphite can do more than just "derp around" until his cooldowns are up because of his passive splash damage - and the incentive to stay close to priority targets to Ground Slam again because he lacks a way to efficiently cover that ground again without his ult.

Furthermore, Malphite's cooldowns are pretty close to Leona's outside his ult, and he also builds CDR - and probably will be able to acquire more of it than Leona does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Unlike Leona however you don't see Malphite in bot lane, nor do you see him running around with mana regen items and support stuff planting wards with barely 40 armor/mres from items. You do see him/Galio/Nautilius/Shen/etc... infact every tank... as either having a thousand armor/mres and/or a milion health (sounds better than saying "a lot"). Compare that to the usual numbers of these stats to what you see on Soraka, Janna... or, ok Taric... and see the problem there. None of the "usual" supports have a reason to go full in to the teamfight, just to get 2 shotted by some random AOE.
Malphite/Ashe bot lane is pretty funny, actually.

Of course a support won't stay in in this meta because of lack of items. But the two tanks that are most frequently (well, one is seen frequently) relegated to bottom lane (Taric and Alistar) and the one fighter you see down there (Blitzcrank) are all capable of going to a different lane or into the jungle, building full tank, and being good at it. Bruiser (and to a degree, AP) Taric is surprisingly strong. Jungle Alistar is what got him banned, not his supporting power. And top Blitzcrank can be pretty devastating as well, with his AS steriod and passive lightning. If they have the items, they can use them and benefit a lot from them.

Point is - in bot lane, you are a support. So you obviously won't play like you're the tank - that's foolishness. But when they do have items, they have the tools to use them like a tank would. Leona doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Tanks are not made to deal damage, they are made to take it. Tanks are not made entirely by their skillset (Alistar is "special", and lets not talk about exceptions)... they are made by their items, same goes for the AP Caries and the right clickers.
That's like saying building LeBlanc like Malphite would be just as effective as Malphite would be - hint, it's not. Skill sets are the ENTIRE reason you build someone like you do in the first place, and it's why things like Crittlesticks or AP Ashe are generally terrible and inferior to their counterparts - their kits don't mesh well with it.

Leona was designed to be a "tank" but has a burst caster's kit, a little more CC and a support's passive. Think of how well building full tank would work on that even if you could get the money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Leona's strong part is CCs, being a good disabler, the threat she poses is based on short and annoying stun from Q, and the not too small damage from her passive that people often ignore when talking about her. Her weakpoint is actually fitting her strange role. As a "support" lategame she doesn't add any benefit, apart of a very flawed passive that she doesn't use on her own, and a free spot at top/jungle for a tank. Saying what are tanks in 2 words fit the words "initiate" and "survive"... however the second is not a characteristic to Leona.
Her's the thing though - Leona is not, by any means, exceptional at CC - only slightly better than other tanks at it. And while her passive deals damage, it's not her damage. The result is the following logic:
1. Leona cannot kill me on her own, because much of her damage is tied up in her passive.
2. Leona is likely to build like a tank, and will be moderately difficult to kill.
3. Because Leona's only damage is tied up in her passive, which she can only activate with allies, and because her allies are more easily killable than she is (especially once she's done using her spells), I should never attack Leona until all her allies are dead.

Tanks are more than "initiate" and "survive" - because what use is being able to survive if you lack the means to make people hit you in the first place? That is the third aspect of tanks - allow me to explain as such.

Consider a MMORPG, like World of Warcraft, or an RPG like Dragon Age. Warriors are generally considered to be the optimal tanking class because of two things - their affinity for shields, which significantly boost defense and armor, and one skill that is generally called "Taunt." In those games, Taunt generally drastically increases the "threat" values that the AI controlled mobs perceive from the warrior - otherwise, they would simply walk past the tank who probably isn't doing that much damage to the mage, archer, whatever, who is actually dealing most of the damage and, consequently, generating the most threat.

Now, players in LoL are not controlled by defined scripts that can be affected by that sort of thing - so you have to develop mechanics that allow tanks to attract attention. This is done through two things - more CC than other classes, and the threat of their damage over time. In other words, a tank must be able to output enough damage over a long period of time to be able to kill an opposing squishy through attrition - effectively using their tankiness to kill the enemy. So you are partially wrong when you say that tanks aren't made to deal damage - tanks aren't made to deal large amounts of damage, but they must always have recognizable damage to seem at least mildly threatening and, consequently, be attacked by anyone.

Leona has no personal threat. Leona is missing one of the three critical aspects of a tank. Leona is not a well designed tank. End of story.


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Aurasai

Member

11-13-2012

I gave Malphite as an example of a generic tank, as it was given in the previous posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Malphite/Ashe bot lane is pretty funny, actually.

Of course a support won't stay in in this meta because of lack of items. But the two tanks that are most frequently (well, one is seen frequently) relegated to bottom lane (Taric and Alistar) and the one fighter you see down there (Blitzcrank) are all capable of going to a different lane or into the jungle, building full tank, and being good at it. Bruiser (and to a degree, AP) Taric is surprisingly strong. Jungle Alistar is what got him banned, not his supporting power. And top Blitzcrank can be pretty devastating as well, with his AS steriod and passive lightning. If they have the items, they can use them and benefit a lot from them.
Exactly, having the option for Leona to move OUT of bot lane is to great degree the idea of this entire thread. You see examples of "support tanks", gaining acess to items via gold, due to having a kit that allows them to change lane. Basicly what is constantly being put out for 18 pages so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Point is - in bot lane, you are a support. So you obviously won't play like you're the tank - that's foolishness. But when they do have items, they have the tools to use them like a tank would. Leona doesn't.
Support playstyle is mostly passive and defensive. Leona is obviously not designed to work with such playstyle.
I do suggest you try Leona at top/mid lane. Buy items you would buy on a tank. If you are good with an agressive playstyle and know your chances against a certain oponent you would notice that the only thing dragging you down is lack of your passive. Long ago when i got Leona i was either playing her at solotop or bot with a support (usually Karma) buying tank items for late game. A single game in wich you end up having a bit more gold than you usually do, you will actually notice you have plenty of armor/mres from W and items to be very effective as a tank. In fact i had plenty of resistance to buy some damage items and still be as hard to be killed. However back when i was playing Leona for solotop champions like Riven, Shyvana, Darius and a few other didn't exist, and i wasn't as easily countered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
That's like saying building LeBlanc like Malphite would be just as effective as Malphite would be - hint, it's not. Skill sets are the ENTIRE reason you build someone like you do in the first place, and it's why things like Crittlesticks or AP Ashe are generally terrible and inferior to their counterparts - their kits don't mesh well with it.
Don't take everything i say as literal. What i meant is: if you play a tank, you buy tanking items, if you play a ap carry buy ap items, if you play a support... buy wards!
Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Her's the thing though - Leona is not, by any means, exceptional at CC - only slightly better than other tanks at it. And while her passive deals damage, it's not her damage. The result is the following logic:
1. Leona cannot kill me on her own, because much of her damage is tied up in her passive.
2. Leona is likely to build like a tank, and will be moderately difficult to kill.
3. Because Leona's only damage is tied up in her passive, which she can only activate with allies, and because her allies are more easily killable than she is (especially once she's done using her spells), I should never attack Leona until all her allies are dead.

Tanks are more than "initiate" and "survive" - because what use is being able to survive if you lack the means to make people hit you in the first place?
And we get to the root of the problem again... the passive!
This is exactly what i meant on my previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
P.S. Lets not make this into a 10 pages of personal argue about something that will eventually become irrelevant or a subject that we would both agree! Think of Leona... she deserves better!
Lets stop wasting time and energy talking about things wich ware sayd, discussed and explained in great details 2 times in the first 4 pages of this thread. The purpose of my previous reply was to direct the attention the topic back to the root of the problem, Leona's actual role and what changes should be made in that area to fix the current problems wich ware explained MANY times allready. Instead of using the same sentances with different words, it is better to just read a few pages back before doing a new comment for some actual constructive feedback
2 examples of possible reworks that may work on Leona are the one from Dark Kuno back at page 4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Kuno View Post
Sunlight (Passive)
Suggested[/U]
Leona's damaging spells affect the target with Sunlight, dealing 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 125 / 140 (increasing every 2 levels) over 3.5 seconds. This affect can stack up to 3 times. When allied champions deal damage to those targets, they consume the Sunlight debuff to deal additional magic damage equal to the remaining affect.

This lets the designers cling to the faulted concept of wanting her abilities to promote "team play" when LoL is already a team based game and the same concept is not applied to ANY champ in the game. But it would then give her the ability to solo/jungle so that she's not left in the pigeon hole she currently is in as aggressive quasi-tank support for bot lane.

Zenith Blade (E)

Suggested

Passive: Leona's basic attacks deal 10/20/30/40/50 + 20% of AP bonus magic damage. This affect does not apply Sunlight.

Active: Leona projects a solar image of her sword, dealing magic damage to all enemies in a line. When the image fades, the last enemy champion struck will be briefly immobilized and Leona will dash to them.

Again a small buff to address the fact that outside of her cooldowns, Leona does no damage. Again combined with the suggested change to her passive, would allow her to be a viable solo/jungle choice without overpowering the things about her that make her good in Bot lane.
and my own suggestion at page 12:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Leona's spells charge any enemy unit damaged with Sunlight for 3.5 seconds. When Leona or allied champions deal any damage to those targets they consume the Sunlight debuff to deal <10+5*level+0,2*(armor+mres)> OR <10+5*level+0,2*AP> additional magic damage, healing nearby alies for <passive damage*0,2> (healing from creeps is reduced by 50%). This additional damage is counted as the ally's damage and it will benefit from their magic penetration.

So any thoughts on this (about the concept... not the rates!)?
Both suggestions focus on Leona improving her damage, and give the option to switch lane, while leaving her place in bot lane intact, should this be the player choice.

Now about Eydolon's suggestion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eydolon View Post
Leona´s new passive: Sun ownage.

Everytime leona hits an enemy with an ability, she marks them with sunlight. This mark can be activated by a teammate for additional damage, AND can be stacked up to 5 with diminishing returns in the damage done.
Everytime Leona´s Sunlight is activated, she gains a passive burning aura around her that damages enemies with magic dmg... and this damage is increased by the amount of sunlights procsed by leona´s teammates. This aura lasts 3 seconds after the initial sunlight proc, and every extra proc increase its duration by 0.5 secs.

---------------

Hell yeah! burning aura leona FTW!. Now lets see if she will be ignored on an teamfight
By the number you sayd later as "slightly lower than Sunfire" i think its way too low. This passive allso ruins the only part of the game in wich Leona is fairly good at, the early game. It allso doesn't allow her to switch lanes as the passive is again useless when she is alone.


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Onimallar

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Playing Leona as a support(Ugh i hate that word)-> babysitter bot has always been my favourite with her. I always try to kill 1-2 mage creeps per wave when I'm with a friend. This is necessary for me to get my GP5 quickly if the other team is playing very safe.

Leona is aggressive, and is usually all bawls in when played bottom. She dives extremely well.

However, I've found that most people do not know how to play with her in solo queues, so I've started playing her top, which is quite fun (except if you're against Irelia). Her passive is gold when the jungler ganks, and if I run teleport + Flash on her I can move bot quickly to gank.

Her ratios are poor, and her damage is not as great as it needs to be. She also needs to have some type of ability that makes the other team WANT to kill her... such as:

-Her spells cause blindness (similar to Noc's ult) for 1 second after being hit by one.
-Her W causes all enemies to attack her when it explodes for 1, 2, 2.5, 3 seconds when it explodes.
-Her ult heals allies - those in the center are healed, the ones on the outer get hp/sec boost.
-Her basic attacks cause her Q to loose CD by .5 seconds.

Make her more of a threat. My games usually turn out with me having the most kills because I build slightly AD/AP/HP/Tanky and I'm the last one standing bercause others leave me alone, which let's me clean up... not the role she was intended to play I think.


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Eydolon

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post

Now about Eydolon's suggestion:

By the number you sayd later as "slightly lower than Sunfire" i think its way too low. This passive allso ruins the only part of the game in wich Leona is fairly good at, the early game. It allso doesn't allow her to switch lanes as the passive is again useless when she is alone.
Ok, notice that i always focus her passive around her teammates, because , sadly, riot wants to keep her this way no matter what until they say otherwise. The dmg is low because... well, she already does considerable dmg with all stacks properly procsed , and also giving her a free sunfire dmg early game is not a wise idea. Becaus of that the dmg must be not exceptional.

And how an aoe aura dmg ruins from her passive "ruins" her early game? care to explain?.

And until riot admits that not letting her use her own passive is a mistake., she will be forever tied to bot lane... and that will never change


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invincible13matt

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Support playstyle is mostly passive and defensive. Leona is obviously not designed to work with such playstyle.
I do suggest you try Leona at top/mid lane. Buy items you would buy on a tank. If you are good with an agressive playstyle and know your chances against a certain oponent you would notice that the only thing dragging you down is lack of your passive.
I have played Leona in top and in jungle. I did a tank build. And my lack of a passive wasn't the only problem.

Even if you change her passive, so long as its tied to her skills, she will still have a burst caster-like kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Don't take everything i say as literal. What i meant is: if you play a tank, you buy tanking items, if you play a ap carry buy ap items, if you play a support... buy wards!
And what defines who is what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
And we get to the root of the problem again... the passive!
This is exactly what i meant on my previous post:
And my point is that it's not the only problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Passive - Sunlight
Leona's abilities apply Sunlight to targets for 2.5 seconds, revealing their weak points. An ally's damage to a target afflicted with Sunlight is increased by X%, and Leona's damage to a target afflicted with Sunlight is increased by Y%per stack. Sunlight can stack up to Z% times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W - Eclipse
[Toggle] Leona raises her shield, gaining armor and magic resistance. Every 2 seconds, Leona emits a pulse of solar energy, dealing damage to nearby enemies
I prefer this solution. It makes her play like a tank.

Furthermore, I have no idea what makes people think that we have to maintain her viability in bottom lane. It's a silly sentiment that only serves to constrain how you will change her, and while constraints breed creativity, there's nothing particularly sacred about her ability to play support.

The only goal should be to make her the tank she was advertised to be.


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Keitterman

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
...The only goal should be to make her the tank she was advertised to be.
If anyone reading this gets nothing else, this is the main thing right here. Leona is NOT very tanky, and it's been pointed out several times. Now, people tend to "think" she is tanky because they assume damage reduction=tanky, or they ahve been in a game where Leo was ahead in gold (would have to be pretty far ahead).

Half of tanking is mitigating damge (and she isn't real great at that due to: her aggressive play style requires her to buy even more wards, or be vulnerable, she falls behind the other tanks because she doesn't have the cash if your team isn't winning anyway.)

The other half of tanking, and this is what Mat is getting at, is something to cause the target to hit the tank. It does no good to be an immovable object if no one is trying to move you. Other tanks like
Amumu: Aoe dmg the longer he is in the fight, you will eventually lose it
Alistar: knockups, repositions, and health restore, no clipping? nothing he does is effected by tenacity


anyway, you get the idea, they DO something that the other team doesn't really like, and leaving them in battle means dealing with that. However, leaving leona in battle is ok because she does no damage without her team. If she stuns you, and her team is already dead? who care? If she puts sunlight on you, and her team is dead? so what?

"but leo is the queen of stun!!" sorry this just isn't true, it's been pointed out several times that many tanks have as much CC as her in ONE ability, not to mention that one of her big ones, the R is small (effect size) in comparison to other tanks with similar ults (amumu, Malphite) and won't be used twice in a single team fight (example: Alistar will keep punting and pounding your team).

Leo is left completely up to chance that her opponents will even do ANYTHING to her if she jumps at them. A good team will quickly determine
can we burst her down before her team fully engages?
yes? go ahead (most pugs will attempt this)
No? ignore/AA her until her team engages because they think she is gonna be able to save them.


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Onimallar

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keitterman View Post

Leo is left completely up to chance that her opponents will even do ANYTHING to her if she jumps at them. A good team will quickly determine
can we burst her down before her team fully engages?
yes? go ahead (most pugs will attempt this)
No? ignore/AA her until her team engages because they think she is gonna be able to save them.
This here is the entire crux of it.

I really enjoy playing Leona, but late game no one cares about her; she's not a huge threat. People always try to push Leona into the Tarric, Soraka, Janna play style. She's aggressive, she needs to be, her kit demands it.

I've stopped playing her bottom, and have moved her top now. Sure, not the best, but when a team has a very strong AD, AP Cary and a strong jungle, then her top as tanky and a support bottom is quite a nice combo.

40% CDR makes her ult 36 seconds. Sure, can't cast it twice in a team fight, but man it's useful when you need to stop enemies from killing an ally, or using it to engage, then again half a minute later to snipe someone running away.


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RockJockey

Senior Member

11-13-2012

What if:

I would trade Leona's burst shield for a sustained damage AoE similar in size to Amumu's so I could continue to be a threat.

Her E Zenith Blade snared all units hit for .5 seconds? That would increase she CC marginally and help make her more of a threat. And perhaps increase the duration of the immobilize.

From having played Leona a lot, she is one of the best Single Target CC machines. She can keep one enemy champion from escaping for 2-4 seconds.

R Solar Flare: Low CD. Great Initiate because it can stun/slow multiple enemies. Draw back is that it does next to no damage and that the stun radius is tiny.


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Nichod

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Leona is fine. I have no clue why you think she is bad. I play her in ranked and in normal all the time and she is extremely strong. She can snare adding her passive, stun adding her passive, shield aoe slow adding her passive, and another aoe slow with damage and again adding her passive. Then usually after her combo is done again she can snare again and stun again. With all those combos on just a single champion that is 840+/- magic damage with just her passive. And keep in mind since 2 of her spells are aoe that is another possible 1400+/- magic damage on the whole team. And don't say you can't land your aoe on the whole team because I do it all the time. Leona excels at initiating or counter initiating. Did the enemy initiator start the fight? Well Leona will help finish the fight. She'll grab the adc, stunning and harassing him with another teammate and turn the tide of the whole battle.

I usually end Leona games with 30+ assists and at least a couple of kills. My vote for Riot is to leave Leona alone. She is perfect. I LOVE playing her.'

I think the ONLY thing I might say change is to allow her to proc her own passive on minion waves and jungle. I like that it requires the team to proc it on champions, since it forces her to work with her team.


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Eydolon

Senior Member

11-14-2012

The best 2 suggestions i have read are to change eclipse to an AOE persistent aura, and let her passive stack.
The only bad thing about being an aura is that she becomes practically amumu 2.0. Its sad, but this change would make her sooo much better. Keep the dmg it does on the explosion, but instead let her do it over time. And making a toogling ability lets her keep her defenses up as long as her mana lets her. Its a good trade IMO, because her mana costs are not cheap.

And again...riot doesnt want her to pop her own sunlight, so suggestiing that is futile until we know riot thinks otherwise.