Leona: Comprehensive Discussion

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Aurasai

Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krin Scelestus View Post
I do, and I don't agree with that. She isn't meant to be a duelist, but that can always change.
Being able to tradeoff more damage to the target than the target does to you (early to mid game) is a characteristic to every tank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krin Scelestus View Post
So lets say for curiosity she does have the ability to proc it herself, on everything. Now she can go anywhere. Now what? Do you throw her top? Why? Just because you can? How would that even be viable againts normal Top laners, verus Olaf, Irelia, Singed, etc.
Do you start roaming if your ahead? or just tower camp if you get behind? That offers little to a team composition, and is doing more harm than good.
Then the person going there should be aware of the risk. Having a person in top lane usually leaves him/her away for the the early game. Think of Leona as Singed or Cho'gath. Being there is not about roaming but farming. A problem Leona has is that she can't do her role as a tank lategame due to lack of items (due to lack of gold). Activating her passive just makes it possible to be there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krin Scelestus View Post
Now lets say for example you send Leona mid. Sure she can have a hard time against most normal AP mids, especially if they have ranged basic attacks. You are going to farm with W and E, and stun with Q if anything happens. You might have the possibility to roam. You also have great opportunity to lock down a champion, but i don't think Leona would have enough burst damage to finish anyone off. The AP scaling isn't meant for that. Again, I think she can get outplayed a lot by most AP mids.
I would suggest trying mid with her (against a relatively descent team... i won my lane against Diana). Activating her passive is just the small poke needed to finish off the target. Mid lane allso benefits greatly from Leona's ganking potential. Adding small scaling to the passive (think 15-20%) may actually just be enough for a tanky AP build to be viable (due to 5 AP rates). Pretty sure with the addition of the S3 items the meta will change at least a little bit and a few AP carries allready work amazing at solo top lane (mostly the ones who work better for lategame).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krin Scelestus View Post
Now lets say she can jungle. She has great ability to clear with the AoE, and her W gives her some more resistances. She is going to be heavily mana dependent though. Her mana costs and cooldown may force one to use good timing on skills and procing the passive.
Or just have blue buff


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Another simple idea for her passive:
Let it deal its damage to neutral monsters as a damage-over-time effect for 2 seconds. This would enable her to jungle, wouldn't it?


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Aurasai

Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfDrDeath View Post
Another simple idea for her passive:
Let it deal its damage to neutral monsters as a damage-over-time effect for 2 seconds. This would enable her to jungle, wouldn't it?
y
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Kuno View Post
Sunlight (Passive)

Suggested[/U]
Leona's damaging spells affect the target with Sunlight, dealing 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 125 / 140 (increasing every 2 levels) over 3.5 seconds. This affect can stack up to 3 times. When allied champions deal damage to those targets, they consume the Sunlight debuff to deal additional magic damage equal to the remaining affect.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

11-12-2012

^Reading OP.

My thought was a bit different, though, dealing the damage over 2 seconds and not being able to stack (efficient way of stacking it: Open with Zenith Blade, activate Eclipse, first round of passive over, Eclipse explosion, second round of passive...).


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invincible13matt

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Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krin Scelestus View Post
Increasing the stun radius of Solar Flare
No. The range on this stun is decent. You must land the stun with good timing.
Poor use punishes you, while good use rewards you.
The range is large. The radius is terrible. Consider this - Malphite's ultimate, which is a knock-up of the same duration (1.5 seconds), has a larger diameter than the entirety of Leona's Solar Flare. Not just the stun, the ENTIRE thing.

The stun radius is pitiful, large enough to hit only one enemy unless they're giving each other a hug or something. It should be increased to be on par with other good initiators, but that isn't really the only problem that Leona has, nor is it the most major.

I've been saying this for months, and I'm going to keep saying it until it gets through to the general populace. Leona's kit is not good for a tank. She poses no personal threat and gives no reason to attack her. Her kit doesn't give her any benefits for staying in the fight like a proper tank. Give her ratios like .6, .6, and .6 on her regular abilities and she's a much better burst caster than tank.


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Aurasai

Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
The range is large. The radius is terrible. Consider this - Malphite's ultimate, which is a knock-up of the same duration (1.5 seconds), has a larger diameter than the entirety of Leona's Solar Flare. Not just the stun, the ENTIRE thing.

The stun radius is pitiful, large enough to hit only one enemy unless they're giving each other a hug or something. It should be increased to be on par with other good initiators, but that isn't really the only problem that Leona has, nor is it the most major.

I've been saying this for months, and I'm going to keep saying it until it gets through to the general populace. Leona's kit is not good for a tank. She poses no personal threat and gives no reason to attack her. Her kit doesn't give her any benefits for staying in the fight like a proper tank. Give her ratios like .6, .6, and .6 on her regular abilities and she's a much better burst caster than tank.
Leona can cast her ult 2 times till Malphite can cast his ult once. Again Leona's problem is not CCs.
I agree on the rest. It is not entirely her kit that doesn't allow her to be good at what she is meant to be. It is the lack of items. Lack of items due to lack of gold, due to being in a support lane. Activating her passive herself, both gives her more damage and gives her the oportunity to go to another lane/jungle and get gold for items she really needs. Adding a scaling stat on the passive or simply improving its damage would be enough of a damage increase for Leona. If we compare her to the support tanks in the game... actually Alistar... Alistar has an ult that directly reduces the damage tanken by a percentage (basicly that counters even true damage), unlike Leona he is tanky even with 6 slots full of vision wards. When Leona was made, she was not released with the current meta in mind.


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invincible13matt

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Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Leona can cast her ult 2 times till Malphite can cast his ult once. Again Leona's problem is not CCs.
It's not, but Leona is terrible at initiating on more than one person as a result. And that short a cooldown is only relevant past laning if the rest of your team has cooldowns to match...and they often won't.

And Malphite can afford Frozen Heart very easily, so it's somewhat moot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
I agree on the rest. It is not entirely her kit that doesn't allow her to be good at what she is meant to be. It is the lack of items. Lack of items due to lack of gold, due to being in a support lane. Activating her passive herself, both gives her more damage and gives her the oportunity to go to another lane/jungle and get gold for items she really needs. Adding a scaling stat on the passive or simply improving its damage would be enough of a damage increase for Leona. If we compare her to the support tanks in the game... actually Alistar... Alistar has an ult that directly reduces the damage tanken by a percentage (basicly that counters even true damage), unlike Leona he is tanky even with 6 slots full of vision wards. When Leona was made, she was not released with the current meta in mind.
Your argument is self-defeating (Leona's problem is that she can't get items, not her kit, so we should change her kit to let her get items), but I'm going to answer anyway.

Even if Leona could get items, she can't put out any threat of her own, and, consequently, can't draw aggression, due to the way her kit is constructed - pretty terrible for someone who is supposed to be taking damage. She needs to have something added or changed in her kit to give her incentive to stay in the fight - otherwise, she might as well retreat during the last three seconds of her shield's duration, because after her cooldowns, she's done. This is more characteristic of a burst caster than a tank. Even Taric, who is rarely even considered a tank due to being pigeonholed into support more often than not, has some incentive to keep fighting after cooldowns.

Alistar ult doesn't reduce True damage. Nothing does. And not being made with the meta in mind isn't an excuse for a character to be bad at the role for which they were designed.


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Eydolon

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Leona´s new passive: Sun ownage.

Everytime leona hits an enemy with an ability, she marks them with sunlight. This mark can be activated by a teammate for additional damage, AND can be stacked up to 5 with diminishing returns in the damage done.
Everytime Leona´s Sunlight is activated, she gains a passive burning aura around her that damages enemies with magic dmg... and this damage is increased by the amount of sunlights procsed by leona´s teammates. This aura lasts 3 seconds after the initial sunlight proc, and every extra proc increase its duration by 0.5 secs.

---------------

Hell yeah! burning aura leona FTW!. Now lets see if she will be ignored on an teamfight


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Aurasai

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Your argument is self-defeating (Leona's problem is that she can't get items, not her kit, so we should change her kit to let her get items), but I'm going to answer anyway.

Even if Leona could get items, she can't put out any threat of her own, and, consequently, can't draw aggression, due to the way her kit is constructed - pretty terrible for someone who is supposed to be taking damage. She needs to have something added or changed in her kit to give her incentive to stay in the fight - otherwise, she might as well retreat during the last three seconds of her shield's duration, because after her cooldowns, she's done. This is more characteristic of a burst caster than a tank. Even Taric, who is rarely even considered a tank due to being pigeonholed into support more often than not, has some incentive to keep fighting after cooldowns.
I would say Malphite as a viable option for a tank. He is very similar to Leona... use cooldowns, autoattack and derp arround till they are back. True he gains a very small splash damage on autoattacks, however Leona's cooldowns are much shorter than his (considering cdr is a part of your build), in fact much shorter than most tanks. Unlike Leona however you don't see Malphite in bot lane, nor do you see him running around with mana regen items and support stuff planting wards with barely 40 armor/mres from items. You do see him/Galio/Nautilius/Shen/etc... infact every tank... as either having a thousand armor/mres and/or a milion health (sounds better than saying "a lot"). Compare that to the usual numbers of these stats to what you see on Soraka, Janna... or, ok Taric... and see the actual problem there. None of the "usual" supports have a reason to go full in to the teamfight, just to get 2 shotted by some random AOE.
Tanks are not made to deal damage, they are made to take it. Tanks are not made entirely by their skillset (Alistar is "special", and lets not talk about exceptions)... they are made by their items, same goes for the right clickers.
Leona's strong part is CCs, being a good disabler, the threat she poses is based on short and annoying stun from Q, and the not too small damage from her passive that people often ignore when talking about her. Her weakpoint is actually filling her strange role. As a "support" lategame she doesn't add any benefit, apart of a very flawed passive that she doesn't use on her own (wich is the only actual reason you see her in bot lane), and a free spot at top/jungle from a tank (CCs are mostly something fitting a tank, not a support). Saying what are tanks in 2 words fit the words "initiate" and "survive"... however the second -due to her kit- is not a characteristic to Leona.

Off-topic: this reply is under the influence of a few bottles of a certain Czech Premium Beer
P.S. Lets not make this into a 10 pages of personal argue about something that will eventually become irrelevant or a subject that we would both agree! Think of Leona... she deserves better!


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Eydolon

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Malph is not similar to leona because he scales very different and he cannot be ignored on a teamfight.

that being said, what do you think about the wonderfull passive idea i posted above?

the damage of the aura could scale 5 times for a max of a 20 dmg per sec or so ( weaker thana sunfire)