Philo Stone On Vladimir?

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Strill

Senior Member

06-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotTiza View Post
11% more damage is 0.11 CDR scaling. Compare that to Vlad's AP ratios - 0.6 on Q damage, 0.25 on Q heal, 0.45 on E damage, 0.7 on R damage.

CDR isn't useless, but AP scales better in terms of raw damage.
DPS is Damage / time. If you reduce time by 10%, you increase DPS by 11%, BUT that's only if you have no CDR to begin with.

1 Damage / (0.9 * Time) = 1.11 DPS.

CDR scales assymptotically, so the more CDR you have, the more effective additional CDR is (up to the cap). This means that CDR masteries and runes would make that 10% CDR even stronger. For example, say he already has 8% CDR from Enlightenment and Sorcery, an additional 10% CDR increases his total DPS by 12%. If you're going from 30% to 40% CDR, your total DPS increases by 16.7%.

8% CDR -> 18% CDR
(1/0.92) / (1/0.82) = +12.2%

30% CDR -> 40% CDR
(1/0.7) / (1/0.6) = +16.7%

What are Vlad's AP ratios supposed to demonstrate? It sounds like you're trying to compare CDR to AP as though there was a "CDR ratio" on abilities, or as though 1% CDR was valued the same as 1 AP, or as though CDR was equivalent to the bonus damage on abilities, which it simply isn't. CDR getting you additional uses on skills means it scales with BOTH base and bonus damage, and the effectiveness of CDR is nonlinear as I just showed. If you want to demonstrate that CDR is weaker than AP, you need to show that a given amount of gold's worth of CDR is worse than that much gold's worth of AP.

It's absolutely true that AP is better whenever you're using hit-and-run tactics, and it's absolutely true that Spell Vamp can help you sustain better if you're focusing on Tides of Blood over Transfusion, which is why I'm really confused as to why you're taking this argument. Usually when I read guides, I see people avoiding CDR on say, a mid champ, because either the champ's cooldowns are too long to use twice in the same fight, even with CDR, leaving them to focus entirely on burst, or they recognize the power of CDR but plan on getting the CDR from elixirs, masteries, and blue buff (an argument I find somewhat tenuous, but could work in an organized group).


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godz raiden

Senior Member

06-21-2012

The way I see it, Vlad's kit doesn't justify building Philosopher's Stone on him. He doesn't use mana, so he only gets 2/3 the benefit of that item. The items it builds into late game aren't all that great on him considering you can get far greater items for damage output, and thanks to his passive, also HP. That's why getting items like Hextech Revolver and Rylai's Crystal Scepter as fast as possible is common for Vlad players. Shurelya's active is more useful for Tanky initiators than it is for Vlad and it ultimately will become a wasted item slot that could have a much more powerful AP item in it.

Vlad just gets much better stats from building AP than CDR, it's honestly just how he works because of his passive and kit, no matter how you cut your math.

Also, if you do want CDR that badly, Spirit Visage would probably be a better item on Vlad. Increases healing effects, gives HP, and thus some AP for Vlad. 10% CDR (Not Shurelya's 15%, but it's good enough on Vlad really) and MR. Plus it synergizes well with WotA and makes your healing effects pretty amazing. Much better than any item philostone builds into.


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Strill

Senior Member

06-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by godz raiden View Post
The way I see it, Vlad's kit doesn't justify building Philosopher's Stone on him. He doesn't use mana, so he only gets 2/3 the benefit of that item.
Not 2/3rds. The main reason you'd upgrade the regrowth pendant to a philo stone is not for the mana regen, but for the gold. My reasoning was that the regen carries you through the early game where you're your weakest, and the item pays for itself later by the time you sell it. Keep in mind that at the start of the game, 15 HP/5 from a regrowth pendant is equivalent to an extra transfusion every 5 seconds.

Quote:
The items it builds into late game aren't all that great on him considering you can get far greater items for damage output, and thanks to his passive, also HP. That's why getting items like Hextech Revolver and Rylai's Crystal Scepter as fast as possible is common for Vlad players. Shurelya's active is more useful for Tanky initiators than it is for Vlad and it ultimately will become a wasted item slot that could have a much more powerful AP item in it.

Vlad just gets much better stats from building AP than CDR, it's honestly just how he works because of his passive and kit, no matter how you cut your math.

Also, if you do want CDR that badly, Spirit Visage would probably be a better item on Vlad. Increases healing effects, gives HP, and thus some AP for Vlad. 10% CDR (Not Shurelya's 15%, but it's good enough on Vlad really) and MR. Plus it synergizes well with WotA and makes your healing effects pretty amazing. Much better than any item philostone builds into.
I think people overestimate Spirit Shroud.

Here, I'll list the effects of its healing boost.

+8.25 Healing on Transfusion
+2.7% Spell Vamp (assuming you have a Hextech revolver and 6% spell vamp from runes.)
+2.43 HP/5

I don't mean to say that it's a bad item, because it's very cost effective and Vladimir can make use of all the stats, but the HP regen bonus is not all I see people making it out to be. If you needed the MR, I can definintely see getting it, but if you want more regen, a Hextech Gunblade/WotA/Hextech Revolver would be much better for that purpose.


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godz raiden

Senior Member

06-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strill View Post
Not 2/3rds. The main reason you'd upgrade the regrowth pendant to a philo stone is not for the mana regen, but for the gold. My reasoning was that the regen carries you through the early game where you're your weakest, and the item pays for itself later by the time you sell it. Keep in mind that at the start of the game, 15 HP/5 from a regrowth pendant is equivalent to an extra transfusion every 5 seconds.


I think people overestimate Spirit Shroud.

Here, I'll list the effects of its healing boost.

+8.25 Healing on Transfusion
+2.7% Spell Vamp (assuming you have a Hextech revolver and 6% spell vamp from runes.)
+2.43 HP/5

I don't mean to say that it's a bad item, because it's very cost effective and Vladimir can make use of all the stats, but the HP regen bonus is not all I see people making it out to be. If you needed the MR, I can definintely see getting it, but if you want more regen, a Hextech Gunblade/WotA/Hextech Revolver would be much better for that purpose.
Philo stone gives three things: HP regen, Mana regen, and GP10. You'll benefit from the gold and hp... so yeah... 2/3rds...

The passive on Spirit Visage* is the biggest benefit from the spirit visage. You should almost always be rushing a hextech revolver on Vlad, combine that with an early spirit visage (if you really want the CDR that badly) and you've made yourself pretty much immovable in lane. I'm not saying skip hextech revolver with my suggestion. And getting any item prior to revolver just delays getting it that much further, so the philo will set you back in itemization honestly and maybe even make you an easier target to trade with, whereas revolver+spirit visage combo will make your trades go in your favor much better.


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xCry0x

Senior Member

06-21-2012

This whole topic got completely side tracked.

The whole argument is if philo stone in itself is good on vlad.

I say definitely not because gp10 is not worth while since you are solo farming a lane and with vlads sustain you generally are never forced to B. Once you get going you can clear entire creep waves with a single cast of E so farming gets easier and easier. My first time playing vlad I finished a 30 min game with something like 260 cs and I failed miserably early game at last hitting.

That money is better spent on main build items.


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Strill

Senior Member

06-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by godz raiden View Post
Philo stone gives three things: HP regen, Mana regen, and GP10. You'll benefit from the gold and hp... so yeah... 2/3rds...
It gives exceptionally more hp regen than mana regen. I don't see anywhere near "1/3rds" wasted.

Quote:
The passive on Spirit Visage* is the biggest benefit from the spirit visage. You should almost always be rushing a hextech revolver on Vlad, combine that with an early spirit visage (if you really want the CDR that badly) and you've made yourself pretty much immovable in lane. I'm not saying skip hextech revolver with my suggestion. And getting any item prior to revolver just delays getting it that much further, so the philo will set you back in itemization honestly and maybe even make you an easier target to trade with, whereas revolver+spirit visage combo will make your trades go in your favor much better.
Did you not read what I said? Spirit visage's passive only gives 2.7% spell vamp even if you have a revolver + spell vamp quints. The regen passive is not exceptional in the least.


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godz raiden

Senior Member

06-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strill View Post
It gives exceptionally more hp regen than mana regen. I don't see anywhere near "1/3rds" wasted.

Did you not read what I said? Spirit visage's passive only gives 2.7% spell vamp even if you have a revolver + spell vamp quints. The regen passive is not exceptional in the least.
Spell vamp returns HP to you immediately. HP regen does not, it's over time. How is that not better for a champ like Vlad who comes with a kit that supports flat healing through spell vamp again?

Why settle for slow hp regen and allow yourself to be bursted down before a full recovery when you can focus on flat hp and ap items and heal yourself to full with one spell cast?


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Strill

Senior Member

06-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by godz raiden View Post
Spell vamp returns HP to you immediately. HP regen does not, it's over time. How is that not better for a champ like Vlad who comes with a kit that supports flat healing through spell vamp again?
Because during the time it's most important it'll close to double your overall regen, assuming you even use Transfusion immediately at every opportunity.
Quote:
Why settle for slow hp regen and allow yourself to be bursted down before a full recovery when you can focus on flat hp and ap items and heal yourself to full with one spell cast?
I never said I'd be focusing on HP regen. I said I'd be getting it early when the other options are weaker.

My point on spirit visage is that if it's the +15% regen passive that interests you most about it, you'd be far, far better off just buying another hextech revolver after finishing your WotA.


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Teekink

Senior Member

06-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotTiza View Post
11% more damage is 0.11 CDR scaling. Compare that to Vlad's AP ratios - 0.6 on Q damage, 0.25 on Q heal, 0.45 on E damage, 0.7 on R damage.

CDR isn't useless, but AP scales better in terms of raw damage.
Implying that AP and CDR aren't similar to AD/crit.

You get AP and CDR for a MULTIPLICATIVE increase.

*mumble mumble riot doesn't even know how their own game works mumble mumble*


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G4mb13

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Senior Member

06-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strill View Post
It gives exceptionally more hp regen than mana regen. I don't see anywhere near "1/3rds" wasted.

Did you not read what I said? Spirit visage's passive only gives 2.7% spell vamp even if you have a revolver + spell vamp quints. The regen passive is not exceptional in the least.
You're forgetting to take in the health bonus from Tides stacks. 8% fully stacked according to the wiki, so with 15% from SV that's 23% healing.

But I don't really build SV anymore on Vlad. It used to be core, but lately I find rushing Revolver and then a Deathcap is more beneficial in to mid game. When you're taking quarters out of your enemies health, your going to get a lot more back then you would with SV.

With regard to Philo stone, I don't see it being worth while. Even if you do end up selling it, all your going to have is regen for a long while. Vlad's early game is kind of weak until you can put a little umph behind your Q, so buying AP or even Health to a lesser extent because of your passive would be the way to go.