How can we improve Dominion's point system?

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Mirror

Senior Member

06-18-2012

All of the following assumes you guys have the mechanics to make these things work. =D

Philosophical stuff:

1) Why not grant interruption credit to everyone on the point's area when an enemy stops channeling - instead of when an enemy's channel is hard-broken? This would have a couple benefits:

- It would account for proximity interruption, since often all it takes is the threat of an approaching champion to get someone to back off.
- It would bring the team average closer together by having more "flat" or shared points available. When I introduce friends to the game mode, having half (or less!) the score of the top spots can be as demoralizing as a loss when they feel they've just played their heart out. Side-note: I think the mode could use a few more point-flatteners.

2) Martyr's a cool idea to help new players get the concept that it's often better to die having defended a point than to escape having lost it, but I think it could be more accurate so that the reward is focused on the right behavior:

- The reward should be large if you die at an uncontrolled point (because you were obviously fighting to control it).
- It should also be large if you die at an enemy point with an ally in a nearby radius (because you likely died so that your ally could live on to capture).
- It should remain large if you die on a friendly point.
- You should get little or no Martyr credit for dying alone on a point that remains enemy-controlled, because that action is not more useful to your team than you losing a duel in the middle of the map.

Technical stuff: I think the "On-point" radius could/should be increased to the actual reasonable combat radius of the point. Mainly the area "behind" the point, where the health relics are. If you hide back there to surprise an approaching enemy, you're outside the range for Point Defense credit. If you die back there while kiting enemies away from the point, you're outside the range for Martyr credit. Same for kill on point, etc.


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MMKH

Senior Member

06-18-2012

I always get a surprising amount of points whenever I play AP Corki. This probably means that a lot of the points comes from interrupting captures and dying on points for the Martyr bonus lol.


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ArlanKels

Senior Member

06-18-2012

So right now you get points for:
Supporting(Healing, buffing, helping to stab people with sharp things)
Capturing a point
Assisting to capture a point(Sometimes merely by standing near a captured point as it's captured?)
MURDER
Grabbing health shrines
Standing near a captured point(Point defense)


Do you get points for killing creeps? I don't know :|a

But beyond those what could you even do?

Alright guys lets actually think about this as complicateidlaidfxy as possible. Yes that's a word, leave me alone.

If you could code anything whatsoever into the game in regards to point bonuses what would it be?
Proximity to teammates(limited to 2 people to try and curb 5 man roams?)
Proximity to enemy? Proximity to enemies near your tower? Proximity to enemies not near their towers?
Putting some sort of coded point priority based on enemy behavior? Like if 4 enemies are near windmill and you run in and 1v4(Proximity thing again) then you lose points?

:|a


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RBeckham

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
But the general idea is that the point system should give players a point of reference and positive reinforcement for being legitimately useful.
Then "points" should be nothing more than indication of damage you've delt to the enemy nexus (since that is the winning factor). A kill/assist or point capture means your personal "score" rises and a player can gauge their individual value.

In Summoner's Rift, it is just as impossible to accurately judge how an action affects the game. If there were a way to quantify the value of an individual on the team, we wouldn't have the ELO system making radical adjustments to our rating due to one player's poor performance in one game.

As it stands, standing on a point is not helping you win the game. Often enough, standing in the jungle brush next to a speed shrine is better. Grabbing a health shrine when you don't need it, but could need it in a moment, also doesn't make any sense as to why that's winning the game. And if i'm a character with a scarey ranged skill that's causing players to hesitate an approach? You can't measure that. So why try?

Destroy the enemy nexus is the goal, so why isn't that the focus of what points serve to accomplish?


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

06-18-2012

The score system is useless. I'm a dominion player and I don't see it's use. It doesn't tell me any information that can be usefull to play. What annoys me is that Creep kill would be usefull to have (to know how well i'm farming bot or elsewhere compared to other players and how that farm advantage is actually impacting on my win rate).

The score is a Noob-trap and is damaging to the development of a dominion player. Their brain lose time trying to improve in a place where it's worthless to improve.

The solution to ease the barrier of entry or make the game more intuitive is to give tips, or make a tutorial. Or whatever.

Creating a system that confuses people just make things way worse. I really want more new players coming into the game, for that reason, i think the score system should be removed.


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Nirosu

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Would you say then, that an aggregate score is less useful than multiple metrics with no clear ranking?
I think a multitude of metrics being listed without a score might actually be better. Though making the metrics have meaning might be a bit difficult. Along with a players score shouldn't really be the judge of a good player in the slightest. Just like in summoners rift a good k/d/a score or bad one doesn't tell the full story and the importance of it should be small and only be used as a way to award good decision making which is very dynamic.


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Slivyrr

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOODFOOD View Post
Hm, you know, I like this also.
Yay, likes!


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Talith PA

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
1). Remove Martyr, especially for dying on an enemy's point.
2). Reward pushing minions to turrets, and killing those minions.
3). Increase score gain for point defense and getting storm shield.
4). Increase score gain for assists.
5). Increase score gain for interrupts.
6). Point capturing score gain should consider partial captures, not just who is present in the area when someone else finishes.
7). Invent a score gain for successful jungle skirmishes/bushwhacks.
On stormshield, it should reward every teammate in the area as well. It is generally crazy to try and get it by yourself without knowing where everyone is on the map unless you have your team guarding you while you pick it up. If everyone equally gains points then it encourages making sure the person that benefits from it the most gets it.


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Nny

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Member

06-18-2012

I don't know if it's already been mentioned, and it doesn't really have to do with the score system, but:

If you are neutralizing a point and an enemy dies on the point, I think you should get an assist. You are assisting the fight by taking the turret out, but you get no credit as such.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirosu View Post
I think a multitude of metrics being listed without a score might actually be better. Though making the metrics have meaning might be a bit difficult. Along with a players score shouldn't really be the judge of a good player in the slightest. Just like in summoners rift a good k/d/a score or bad one doesn't tell the full story and the importance of it should be small and only be used as a way to award good decision making which is very dynamic.
I'd like to go from first principles here and figure out what the scoring system should be doing exactly.

So if we agree that the scoring system isn't going to be able to be a completely accurate form of usefulness/skill indicator, then we should at least strive for it to be a means to help indicate to new players what they should (and shouldn't!) be doing. KDA isn't the whole story on SR but it serves as an initial goal for new players to work on (even if you have a good kda you may not be helping your team, but if you have a bad one you're certainly hindering them)

From there, I would recommend starting with the following:
* Capping is useful, but what needs to be rewarded mostly is the actual capturing. Neutralizing is OK, but if we treat it as good as actually capping the point, then people are incentivized to backdoor (*cough*pooters*cough*).
* Capping should only be done by one person in most cases, with the notable exceptions being if a group of enemy minions are sieging a point and the initial windmill fight. Therefore, points should not be rewarded linearly for multiple people capping.
* Dying to defend a point or cap a point is good but only if that death nets results. Assists while dead should provide bonus points, allies capping a point while you died near one should provide points, things like that. Further, each ally that dies near you while you're dead should make you lose points, enemy caps on nearby points should also cost, and if you gain no positive benefit from dying (see previous) there should be a small penalty on rez. The negative bonuses are tricky, but I feel like they'll work with the right combo of conditions.
* Kills and assists matter relatively little, and should be minimally rewarded (10 points for each?)
* Engaging in combat with enemies near a point an ally is capping should be rewarded; both because you're taking advantage of the fact that the turret can't shoot, and you are in many cases zoning the enemy from interrupting the cap.
* Point defense bonuses are fine, but only as long as there are enemies actively contesting the point.
* To encourage wave pushing, bonus points should be awarded to cappers that neutralize or cap a point with ally minions having recently helped. This might help bot more, since a lot of caps are with minion help.
* Storm relics should give a lot more points, but only for taking them during dull times. Perhaps a base 30 or so points, then 5 points less for each ally that has taken damage from an enemy champion in the last X seconds?

These are just a start. In general, you want to look at what contexts certain actions are useful in and then reward based on those.