Theorycrafting: 1v2 top-lane solo q normals

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An Falchu

Member

06-18-2012

So yeah, I spend a lot of my time jungling in solo q normals. Life doesn't leave me chance for much else. What I've noticed, of course, is that the enemy teams rarely have their own jungler, which throws our poor top laner into a 1v2 situation for a good part of the game.

To adapt, I camp top and mid, and try to get some killz onto my top's champ as quick as possible.

The problems:

1) people don't play 1v2 very well
2) people often chose the wrong kind of champ to try to solo with
3) I can arrive top right after blue and have level 2 and still not be able to secure a kill because my teammate responds slow or tentative to my arrival, or their champ is ineffective in a surprise clash.

I've come to believe that the best champs to take top lane in solo q norms are ones who can a) farm at range and b) have cc and damage potential. Champs that can work like a "double kill" bottom lane combo might work.

I'd like to toss around some ideas for solo top champs that can pair well with ganking junglers like Maokai, Alistar, Pantheon, Jarvan. And invite discussion on how to maximize jungling and solo lane potential while keeping that solo lane alive and thriving vs 2 enemies.

I'm not sure if ranged AD or ranged AP are best, but I do know that since competitive play (involving junglers on both teams) features a lot of melee/sustain champs, people in solo q norms try to force that meta onto their own games where the enemy tends to ignore jungles. AND IT DOESN"T WORK.

Solo q norms need a different meta, yes, but I think that jungling vs. a non-jungling enemy team can still be advantageous if done properly. Top lane needs to cooperate though, in learning how best to survive, farm, and dive into ganks versus overextended enemies.

Let me start it off: what do you think about combining junglers like Mao, Ali, Panth with a top laner like Vayne, Morgana, Jarvan, Tristana, Maokai, Graves, Ryze, Urgot...?

Ideas, arguments for and against, etc are all greatly encouraged.

thanks!


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Etherimp

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Well, first of all.. You probably have a low hidden ELO. Based on your summoner profile I see you have about 230 wins. Almost all games at level 30 should have a jungler on each team. The "meta" at lower ratings is much different than it is at higher.. What works against bad players doesn't work against good, and vice versa.

You shouldn't make a strategy based around your opponent making poor decisions and you shouldn't make a strategy based around your top-lane being a failtard.

Basically, 2v1 toplane is sharing farm, and hoping to get kills.. the 1 on your team is getting a level advantage on them and you are getting a level advantage and gold advantage on them.. So, the problem is your top is dying to 2v1? If you gank constantly, it's 2v2 and you still get the added benefit of farming the jungle.


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TVPMike

Senior Member

06-18-2012

I would recommend trying Draft Mode? Usually the people in their are more serious about playing according to competitive Meta and are more likely to use jungles. (I totally know what you mean in Blind Pick though; the people who are always saying "No jungler is better".)

You will, however, find yourself having to 2v1 top on occasion. I would recommend Kennen. Kennen is one of the safest top Champions, because not only does he have enormous range on his Q, but if the enemy tries to close the distance you also have a stun and your E to quickly get away. He is also sets up good ganks with his stun, which is something to consider.

Vladimir is another option, but I generally find that while his early game is good enough to 2v1, somewhere around mid-game the 2 on top are tanky enough to dive him. Kennen on the other hand is not someone you'd want to dive; with his stuns, evasiveness and slightly more tankyness.


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Duas

Junior Member

06-18-2012

Ignore the top 2 posts, this is what you need.

They have no jungler, means bot lane and mid lane is about to messed up.

Do that.

Let top farm at his tower and gank if they look like theyre hitting him at the tower making themselves vulnerable, otherwise, dont gank top 2v2 unless mid is coming with.


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TVPMike

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duas View Post
Ignore the top 2 posts, this is what you need.

They have no jungler, means bot lane and mid lane is about to messed up.

Do that.

Let top farm at his tower and gank if they look like theyre hitting him at the tower making themselves vulnerable, otherwise, dont gank top 2v2 unless mid is coming with.
I don't think he was like "Omg2topwhatdowedoomgwelostomg". I think he was just asking what Champions are good to 1v2 Top with. Believe it or not, a lot of Champions can have a hard time trying to farm at top tower with a 1v2. Specially if the enemy team has any form of harass.


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Duas

Junior Member

06-18-2012

well thats easy, Shen, Rumble, anyone tanky n self healable or has shields


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An Falchu

Member

06-18-2012

Yes I'm probably a low hidden elo player. I've improved quite a bit, but my rank will probably stay low. when I can, I try the normal drafts instead of blinds, but often time won't let me sit through 5-min matchup waits that include dodges that drag the matchup time into 10-min or more.

I see no problem with trying to theorize new idea for lower elos. Getting teamed with weak players doesn't mean we can't strive to improve or do better.

Yes, a solo top vs 2 will die frequently without aid. I hit top frequently, and right outta the gates after getting blue and the lvl2 advantage. "Ganking" top is a 2v2 prospect, so I feel getting the right champs together to pounce on an overextended enemy is ideal (I have good results with Mao, and best results with Alistar, lvl2 from blue does wonders vs 2 enemies who shove their lane in the first 60 seconds). Camping top while still jungling frequently can build good advantages if we can get a couple early kills. The wrong champ chosen for the top lane leads to bad engages zero farming.

When I run solo top myself instead of jungle, I can survive easy with AP mages, and get some farm in, at the cost of quick mana depletion. by level 4or 5 I can start clearing waves quicky. When I've tried AD ranged, I can get some last hits in, but still wind up getting sniped quite a bit vs the 2 enemy, burning through pots pretty quickly. Some one like Graves can buckshot waves once he lvls up a bit, but he has not CC for those hoped for ganks. Panth actually does OK with his q-spear, and has 1 stun for gank-support.

Vlad has his lifesteal sustain, but no CC for aiding in ganks. Kennen sounds like a good option. Nice suggestion.

I've had more success camping top lane vs2 than I have leaving the poor fella alone, although if my teammate stays smart instead of demoralized at the possible loss of an early tower, he might find farming becomes easier when the enemy starts to roam away a bit (although then mid gets pressured). Just let that first tower go if ya gotta, instead of losing your life and THEN the tower anyways....

The more I think about it, the more it seems wave-clearing and CC is what we need solo top, partnered with the understanding that the first few levels, before getting skilled up enough to clear waves quick, are going to be rough with or without ganks. Strong CC at those early levels can counter-balance the lack of farm by securing kills.

I like the idea of encouraging mid to push and move top to gank with superior numbers. I try that often, with mixed results, LOL.

Jarvan top might work well too, on account of his lance-thrust and his shield to clear and to defend, and then his toss-lance combo for knockups during ganks. Yeah, still feels like I can relate this to a "double-kill" bottom lane where the jungler is the "support" CC, trying to get kills for his teammate.


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Gnarzard

Member

06-18-2012

I've had a few games being solo top against 2 top as Yorick where I have actually pushed the other team to their turret. He is one of the better pushers. Also Nunu isn't the worst choice.

I would advise whoever is top when you play to just stay near the turret and be patient while they wait for you to gank top. Also teleport is useful to bring just incase especially when playing normals.


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An Falchu

Member

06-18-2012

Sometimes the lvl2 gank is ideal. Sometimes waiting til after 4 is better, but only if top manages to stay alive and earn his experience-advantage so that he becomes 1 or 2 levels above the enemy.

Practicing with just coming into lane at lvl2 with blue, but not forcing a fight. I've had a few fellas recently try to follow thru balls-deep for a kill when it turns out to be impossible right off the bat. Trying to teach people that a gank doesn't need to result in a kill. Often you burn their summoners, or just do some great harass, hit and run and get out. Go for the kill the second or third time around if you manage some good damage against them. This is where jungler acts more as a support/enabler for a couple minutes. Get a kill or drive the enemy back so that your top can farm and get breathing room. Then jump back into the jungle again to continue building both champs advantages.


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HonorableGeneral

Senior Member

06-18-2012

I'd say have a top champ with good range for last hitting and with decent harass so he keeps the two enemy tops from taking the tower. Have top pack teleport so he can freeze lane constantly - his main goal should be to freeze lane just within tower's range - close enough for him to run to tower to protection but not so close that the tower draws minion aggro.

If the situation is 1v2 then the solo top really should just try and stay as close as possible to tower and farm up, taking advantage of his extra gold and experience. Ganking top isn't recommended since the two top champions will expect it and possibly adjust accordingly. Instead, aim to cripple mid and bottom lanes, baiting the top lane champions out of their own lane to help. If they don't take the bait, fake-ganking top and then running away may draw them away from your solo top long enough for him to pick up some farm. Just make sure when doing this that you make it appear like you're going to drop your whole combo (ie. as Shen, pop your taunt and throw a knife or two before drawing them out of lane to make it appear as if you're going for a full gank).


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