Dodge, Armor penetration and other unclear attributes

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ConeEtho

Senior Member

10-31-2009

I have a few questions about some abilities, whose descriptions are not clear in the game.

Does dodge stack additively, multiplicative or not at all? If it stacks additively, is there a cap, or would you be immune to physical attacks with 5 phantom dancers for example?

Same question about damage penetration. In this case would 3 last whisper make the enemy armor irrelevant for your physical attacks?

Another question, do abilities that give you damage based on your health, like Madred's Bloodrazor and Atmas Impaler, and in your APs, like Sheen, stack with themselves? Would you have 5% of your HP in magical damage per attack if you have 2 Madred's Bloodrazors, for example?

Thank you in advance for any light you can cast upon these doubts.


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Grumm

Senior Member

10-31-2009

If there is a passive on an item, and there is nothing else than Passive it stacks with itself, but if there is a UNIQUE before the Passive: it doesnt stack with ITSELF (Means that the effect can stack with other items with the same effect, but not itself. an exception to this is Sheen, Lich and Trinity.) As i remember Bloodraxors are not UNIQUE and stack, but you have to remember they does magic damage, so it is reduced by Magic Resistant, so it never really does 2.5% damage.

Sheen doesnt stack it attack bonus more and more, and if you keep using Hate Spike (With Eve), and after 4 secs, you cant make an attack which does 128478 damage.

Dodge have a "Soft Cap" which means that, you can stack 5 phantoms, but it will after a point it will give reduced bonus, i believe the Soft Cap with dodge is 40% where after that its not as effective.

I dont remember if the passive for Last Whispers is UNIQUE or not. But if it isnt UNIQUE, it wouldnt be very effective.

As an example you have 200 armor, and first you remove 40% thats 120 armor (I beleive, math never been my strong side. Where 40% of 120 is 72, and 40% of 72 43.2 (Kay i used a calculater to this one)
Therefore you can see it wouldnt keep being as effective as it was, but i attually beleive Last Whisper passive is UNIQUE.

I hope my answers wasnt i complete mess, and im also sorry i messed in the order...


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ConeEtho

Senior Member

10-31-2009

By the text on armor penetration I had understood that 40% of your damage bypassed armor completely. By your explanation I understand it is armor reduction instead, and it stacks multiplicatively. Btw, last whisper's passive is indeed UNIQUE as you said, I just checked.

Would that be the same for dodge, meaning two items that give 20% of dodge would end giving you 36% of dodge by stacking multiplicatively instead of the 40% you would expect additively?

And thank you very much for the quick reply.


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Grumm

Senior Member

10-31-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeEtho View Post
By the text on armor penetration I had understood that 40% of your damage bypassed armor completely. By your explanation I understand it is armor reduction instead, and it stacks multiplicatively. Btw, last whisper's passive is indeed UNIQUE as you said, I just checked.

Would that be the same for dodge, meaning two items that give 20% of dodge would end giving you 36% of dodge by stacking multiplicatively instead of the 40% you would expect additively?

And thank you very much for the quick reply.
If Last Whisper is UNIQUE i dont want to speculate, on that and i remember that some people found the order which Armor Penetration debuff in, it is in this Item Discussion.

But to the dodge, im pretty sure the Soft Cap is 40%, so if you have nothing else than 2*20% Dodge items it would become 40%, but if you get 1 more phantom for example, you only have 54% dodge. I dont know the exact numbers, and im not very good at english, so im sorry if i missunderstood you question.

I can check some dodge numbers in a practice.


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Grumm

Senior Member

11-01-2009

I was wrong about the Soft Cap was 40%.

At Level 18 i was Teemo with 9 dodge, then i bought Phantom(20%) then i got 27 dodge, and then i bought another Phantom(20%) i got 42 dodge, and after Ninja Tabi (11%) i had 48.

I dont know how to use these numbers or you can use them to anything.
But with this the Soft Cap is lower than 40% and maybe the Soft Cap just start from 0%. I dont know.


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ConeEtho

Senior Member

11-01-2009

By your data it is clear that dodge stacks multiplicatively.

You had 9% of dodge, meaning the chance to hit you was 91%. You then bought a phantom which applied over this chance. Now the chance to hit you is 0.91 * 0.8 = 0.728, which makes you dodge 1-0.728 = 27.2%.

Now the chance to hit you is 72.8% you buy another phantom, the chance now is 0.728 * 0.8 = 0.5824 = 58.24%, your dodge chance is now 1-0.5824 = 41.76%.

After the Ninja hit chance becomes 0.5824*0.89 = 0.518336, and thus dodge is, 48.1664%.

It seems there is no cap, just a plain multiplicative stack, which automatically imply in diminished returns.


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Grumm

Senior Member

11-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeEtho View Post
By your data it is clear that dodge stacks multiplicatively.

You had 9% of dodge, meaning the chance to hit you was 91%. You then bought a phantom which applied over this chance. Now the chance to hit you is 0.91 * 0.8 = 0.728, which makes you dodge 1-0.728 = 27.2%.

Now the chance to hit you is 72.8% you buy another phantom, the chance now is 0.728 * 0.8 = 0.5824 = 58.24%, your dodge chance is now 1-0.5824 = 41.76%.

After the Ninja hit chance becomes 0.5824*0.89 = 0.518336, and thus dodge is, 48.1664%.

It seems there is no cap, just a plain multiplicative stack, which automatically imply in diminished returns.
Sorry im not a native english speaker, so i didnt really understand the word "multiplicatively"
but from what you said, it is the same as a soft cap, but yes you are right there is no hard cap.


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DevilsAdvocate

Senior Member

11-01-2009

Here's one for everybody: Do multiple debuffs on attack speed stack together? Slow doesn't stack anymore, but attack speed reduction I'm not sure. If I have a Frozen Heart and Warden's Mail, and you trigger my Warden's Mail debuff, choking your atack speed by 35%, is your attack speed reduced by 35% (strongest Debuff only), 55% (adding both debuffs), or 50% (multiplicatively)?


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Z0dd Imm0rtal

Junior Member

11-01-2009

Most of these answers can be found in the following Link:

Frequencly Asked Questions or Mechanics
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ead.php?t=3287