Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


When to engage?

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

06-16-2012

Hi, asking for more help on judgement calls.

I usually run with the philosophy of "any and all deaths can and should be preventable before team fight phase". but i've also been repeatedly told that this is not a good analogy to stick to.

i usually play AD carry and am fairly squishy, so i like to keep out of trouble most of the time. So i guess i need some help on scenarios and stuff you gguys can come up with where you SHOULD risk your neck and go in. i'm still learning positioning in teamfights but i'm getting better at it. but my pre-teamfight phase is a lot of passivity.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Delanish

Senior Member

06-16-2012

Play how you want there different ways to answer that for every situation. Just watch say Team Solo Mid or CLG NA play if you wanna see how the pros do it and even their attempts sometimes fail.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

midillusion

Senior Member

06-16-2012

Whenever you die, you have to always consider the gold that each team got and ask yourself "was that worth it?" For example, let's say the enemy team is doing dragon, none of your team is around to help you contest it. You jump in at the last minute and smite the dragon, stealing the gold from the enemy team. However, as soon as you smite the dragon, the enemy team turns on you and you die. Assuming you are worth no extra gold, your death would have been worth it because dragon is worth more than a single kill, especially if the enemy team uses summoners or ulties to kill you.

The next thing you have to consider is which person gets the gold. For example, let's say you are in a 2v2 fight in bot lane. During the fight, you all die, however, on your team, the AD carry gets 2 kills, while on the opponent's team, the support gets the 2 kills. Even though the kills on each side were the same, you came out ahead because the kills are better on an AD carry than a support.

Finally, you have to take experience into account. Let's say you are laning in mid, your opponent is dead and you decide to go gank top lane. Their solo top has already died 3 times, and so is not worth much gold. If you go up there and wait too long, by the time you gank and get the kill, the amount of gold you get from the kill will not be worth the amount of exp and gold you lost from not being in your lane farming.

So yeah, sometimes dieing is worth it, sometimes not. Whenever you die, look back at each scenario and think about the gold.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Breadlust

Member

06-16-2012

Quote:
midillusion:
Whenever you die, you have to always consider the gold that each team got and ask yourself "was that worth it?" For example, let's say the enemy team is doing dragon, none of your team is around to help you contest it. You jump in at the last minute and smite the dragon, stealing the gold from the enemy team. However, as soon as you smite the dragon, the enemy team turns on you and you die. Assuming you are worth no extra gold, your death would have been worth it because dragon is worth more than a single kill, especially if the enemy team uses summoners or ulties to kill you.

Remember this is quite level dependant and situational, when you die, you have essentially forced your team into a 4v5 ... 190g ea would not be worth an enemy pentakill.
It is safer to do this in the early game than late, late game you should probably ping and bring help, deaths are quite punishing at 18.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FaerellG

Senior Member

06-16-2012

Quote:
CSZHUNG:
Hi, asking for more help on judgement calls.

I usually run with the philosophy of "any and all deaths can and should be preventable before team fight phase". but i've also been repeatedly told that this is not a good analogy to stick to.

i usually play AD carry and am fairly squishy, so i like to keep out of trouble most of the time. So i guess i need some help on scenarios and stuff you gguys can come up with where you SHOULD risk your neck and go in. i'm still learning positioning in teamfights but i'm getting better at it. but my pre-teamfight phase is a lot of passivity.


It's a good philosophy, especially for an AD carry. Your death sets your team back drastically as you should be the primary end game damage for your team.

As for when to engage and preventable deaths. You have to first understand what your opponent's mindset is. Being too reserved and worried about self preservation means that an opponent can neglect their defense a bit more than usual. You need to play the player.

Here's a hypotheical scenario. I'm facing off against you where you have the philosophy of "avoid dying". Suppose that after our exchanges in the laning phase, I've discovered that you have this philosophy. This means that given a situation where we would mutually kill one another, you would prefer to back off and avoid death than indulge the mutual kill.

My options are attack and force the situation, or hang back.
If I know your mind is thinking about saving yourself, then that's less brainpower and focus you're putting into killing me back. You're much more likely to miss the opportunity to kill me when I go in to kill you. So if I force a situation where we would otherwise kill one another, you'd probably try to run away rather than kill me. This gives me an advantage. It means that if I attack, I am unlikely to die (even though you could have killed me).

That's the danger of being too defensive. You end up missing offensive opportunities. Balancing defense and offense is very important. Even more important, is learning how to fake it. If you can fake being a passive player whom an aggressive player can take advantage of, then when they dive in for some "easy harass" you can punish the **** out of them because they won't expect retaliation.

Play the player.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kirielis

Senior Member

06-16-2012

In the late game, 4 players with baron are quite capable of taking on 5 without, all else equal. Otherwise, baron buff does last longer than a single person's death timer, and the 4 can still turtle under a tower and not lose too many towers/inhibs until the 5th comes back up. Denying them baron is always worth it - if you can deny it. Otherwise they become 5 with baron vs your 4 without, and that's trouble.

As the ADC, your goal is to get to where you can take a tower in 5 seconds, without your creeps and with only your friendly tank taking the hits for you. Anything before that...farming is good, getting kills is good, feeding the enemy ADC is bad, letting the enemy ADC outfarm you is bad. It's okay to have not-dying as your first priority before teamfights start, but don't let that scare you away from making what contributions you can: remember, your teammates want to not-die too.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

06-16-2012

hi, thanks for all the responses.

I'm kind of poor to afford anything other than ashe as a permanent (i play whichever other AD is free for the week, MF this week) and i passive farm and turret hug until level 6, where i get frost. i occasionally do a volley as an when my mana permits it, but most of the time i'm under my tower.

my "offense" is when the opponent overextends, or when i see a jungler coming to gank. throw a volley, throw a frost arrow, freeze someone in their tracks and hopefully get a kill in the making. it's been effective thus far other than with useless jungles (who the hell goes for the support that's running away when the AD carry is stunned RIGHT THERE?).

yet i've been yelled at quite a few times especially with jax this week, that i wasnt aggressive enough and thus when he jumps in, i can't really back him up and he gets killed 2 v 1 essentially. that happened with Darius week. i'm not sure if these players are bad and i should just ignore them, or there's something wrong with my playstyle.

also in teamfights, if something goes wrong like they take down 1 or 2 guys, or someone makes a beeline for me, i take the first ticket out and back. been yelled at for that as well. should i be changing that philosophy post haste and be more willing to take risks?

(not talking about baron / dragon. i usually don't have smite as AD carry and smart teams will send one person to scout for people who'd try to steal baron)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

xCry0x

Senior Member

06-16-2012

Early game as ranged ad depends on who you are playing as and who you are playing against.

A champion like ezreal is great at harassing and getting early game kills. A champion like Kog'maw is on the opposite end where kog'maw takes a while to scale up and if allowed to farm will carry harder than almost any other ranged ad.

So in the above situation the ezreal should do everything they can do deny kog'maw creeps and get kills. All things equal if kog and ez play passive and come out of early game both with 150~ cs the kog'maw will be much more of a force in fights than ez just do the mechanics of kog'maw vs ezreal.

---

I just read that you were playing MF this week, MF is an early game champ. Double-up is one of the best harasses in early game since you can hit people with it from way out of range. (double-up works by you shooting a creep and then the shot bounces off the creep and hits whatever is behind it for bonus damage... so if you bounce it into the enemy champion it hurts.)

You really do not want to hug your turret unless you are getting owned or can cs under a turret like a pro. If you are under the turret typically the turret is killing creeps and you are essentially being denied farm.

---

In team fights you should let your team engage and then focus the enemy ap or ad carry (whichever is doing better).

If someone makes a beeline for you you should run.. your team is supposed to keep them off you since you are squishy, it is called peeling and if nobody on your team can cc you cant be expected to sit and die.

At the same time in a team fight you should not run as soon as someone dies, if your team is getting aced your team is getting aced.

Now if someone does something stupid like chasing a champion into the jungle and runs into the other team then rages on you for not following to help; that is not your fault.

If someone dives a turret early game then rages on you for not helping; not your fault.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

06-17-2012

uhm, did i read that right?

if your team is getting aced, you let them take the ace??

also, one more question:
there seems to be a split opinion around. some say it's your job to go for the enemy ad/ap carry. some say just stand at a safe distance and dps down whoever you can reach. which is correct?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

creamyworms

Member

06-17-2012

Quote:
CSZHUNG:
uhm, did i read that right?

if your team is getting aced, you let them take the ace??

also, one more question:
there seems to be a split opinion around. some say it's your job to go for the enemy ad/ap carry. some say just stand at a safe distance and dps down whoever you can reach. which is correct?



No, never let the enemy team "take the ace". As an AD carry you make a huge difference in the dps. Positioning is important, and you are extremely soft, but don't let that slow you down as a player. Use your head. If you have flash up and you know it is a critical fight, you can essentially bait someone into attacking you, and flash around terrain they can't maneuver across quickly without burning their flash as well.

Now since your team is hopefully fighting the other team at this time, you have vision AND a natural barrier protecting you as you pick off the enemy team, feel free to run into the fray as you take the fight, since your positioning will be slightly out of place in this scenario after flashing away.

Also target allocation is CRUCIAL. Do NOT attack the enemy 'tank' or even the support as your primary target. You wan't the person who is going to do the most damage to your team (if you have every opponent as a target) OR alternatively, you want to be attacking the tank, or off-tank or whoever initiated, if they did it too hastily. Punish bad playing; and keep your eyes open. If you start a teamfight and DON'T see their 'assassin'/carry or whatever champion you know in this particular match that is shredding, be on the look out! Some good players specifically wait for the fight to initiate and then tear apart the enemy team from behind; especially with brawler/bruisier champions, like Lee Sin, Irelia, Shyv, etc.


12