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Proving Grounds feedback from an ARAM vet

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Momento Morì

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Wunderbar:
... Spoken by a truely skilled 1268 elo player.

No seriously you're a mother ****ing moron. Your job as a melee is partially to LURE them into mistakes. Not only that, but you have to know when mistakes happen, and where you can turn them into your team's advantage.

YOU HAVE NO ****ING CLUE HOW MELEES WORK IN ARAM. YOU ARE A ****ING IDIOT. GET THE **** OUT.


You're certainly an angry fellow, aren't you?


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Wunderbar

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Momento Morì:
You're certainly an angry fellow, aren't you?


Yes, I'm angry with idiots that actually try to sound like they know something.

To claim there is no skill in playing a melee character well when you're constantly staring 5 people down is tantamount to the largest amount of idiocy I've seen in quite a long time.


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AndrewXA9

Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Momento Morì:
lolno. It requires the enemy team being stupid. Which, fortunately, is going to be the case more often than not because ARAM is not exactly a gametype designed to attract particularly thoughtful players.

Because that's a new concept to ARAM players.


Quote:
Wunderbar:
... Spoken by a truely skilled 1268 elo player.

No seriously you're a mother ****ing moron. Your job as a melee is partially to LURE them into mistakes. Not only that, but you have to know when mistakes happen, and where you can turn them into your team's advantage.

YOU HAVE NO ****ING CLUE HOW MELEES WORK IN ARAM. YOU ARE A ****ING IDIOT. GET THE **** OUT.


I was hoping this thread could keep relatively civil. I don't understand what either of you are tying to accomplish here by being flat out disrespectful.


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Wunderbar

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
AndrewXA9:
I was hoping this thread could keep relatively civil. I don't understand what either of you are tying to accomplish here by being flat out disrespectful.



Sorry, I just woke up. When someone says something that stupid this early in the morning, I can't hold myself back.


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Momento Morì

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Wunderbar:
To claim there is no skill in playing a melee character well when you're constantly staring 5 people down is tantamount to the largest amount of idiocy I've seen in quite a long time.


I never said there was no skill involved. I merely pointed out that succeeding with a melee champion in ARAM is relying on your opponent to play badly.... you even admitted this out yourself, by pointing out that you have to bait your opponent into playing like an idiot and then capitalize on it to succeed as a melee. That's not "being skillful", that's your opponent being bad (it's sort of a necessity for the whole 'making significant mistakes repeatedly' thing.).

Quote:
AndrewXA9:
I don't understand what either of you are tying to accomplish here by being flat out disrespectful.


He doesn't seem to be particularly interesting in civil discourse in the first place (see post immediately above mine, and last post on previous page, note the insistence on referring to people who don't share his worldview as idiots, common sign of a lack of ability to hold reasonable discussion)... and it's hard to hold a rational argument about the balance issues of a map or gametype when you have some guy screaming about how anyone who sees an imbalance is just an idiot and if only they were as skilled as he is they'd get it. So why not just tackle the problem head on instead of dancing around it? It's not a matter of being disrespectful, merely being blunt.


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Wunderbar

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Momento Morì:
I never said there was no skill involved. I merely pointed out that succeeding with a melee champion in ARAM is relying on your opponent to play badly.... you even admitted this out yourself, by pointing out that you have to bait your opponent into playing like an idiot and then capitalize on it to succeed as a melee. That's not "being skillful", that's your opponent being bad (it's sort of a necessity for the whole 'making significant mistakes repeatedly' thing.).


That's because you have to have a certain level of skill BEFORE you can outplay your opponent!

OH MY GOD, OUTPLAYING YOUR OPPONENT REQUIRES BEING MORE SKILLED THAN THEM! WHAT A SURPRISE! I DIDN'T USE THE WORD SKILL ANYWHERE IN THAT SENTENCE, DID I?

It's not baiting them into "acting like an idiot" (ie acting like you), it's baiting them into going too far, where you know that you can capitalize on it for your team, but the opponent doesn't. That is skill. If you still don't understand after this, you're hopeless.

Not to mention, dodging skillshots long enough to be in position to do that... takes... guess what? SKILL.

I'm not going to argue that poke teams don't have an advantage. They do. And they take less skill to play. But it's not like melee characters (with heavy CC especially) can't respond. It happens all the time. Their timing has to be superior, and the have to be play with more skill than their opponents.


Edit: And your original phrasing "lolno. It requires the enemy team being stupid. Which, fortunately, is going to be the case more often than not because ARAM is not exactly a gametype designed to attract particularly thoughtful players."

You honestly didn't think that sounded trollish at all? You honestly didn't think you were going to incite flames with that statement? If so, you're even stupider than you seem (which is saying a lot, from where I'm standing). ARAM is basically a constant team-fight-waiting-to-happen scenario. To say it requires no concentration is likewise one of the dumbest things I've heard.


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Momento Morì

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Wunderbar:
OH MY GOD, OUTPLAYING YOUR OPPONENT REQUIRES BEING MORE SKILLED THAN THEM! WHAT A SURPRISE! I DIDN'T USE THE WORD SKILL ANYWHERE IN THAT SENTENCE, DID I?

It's not baiting them into "acting like an idiot" (ie acting like you), it's baiting them into going too far, where you know that you can capitalize on it for your team, but the opponent doesn't. That is skill. If you still don't understand after this, you're hopeless.

Not to mention, dodging skillshots long enough to be in position to do that... takes... guess what? SKILL.


You're making my point for me, on all counts.

Quote:
Wunderbar:
I'm not going to argue that poke teams don't have an advantage.


But let's dive past all the vitriol and angst for a moment. It's pointless and doesn't help anyone.

Admitting this, what's wrong with, from a hypothetical standpoint, making changes to the map to shift the balance to be slightly more neutral?

Quote:
You honestly didn't think that sounded trollish at all? You honestly didn't think you were going to incite flames with that statement? If so, you're even stupider than you seem (which is saying a lot, from where I'm standing).


I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings Wunderbar .

You know I love you though, right?

Quote:
ARAM is basically a constant team-fight-waiting-to-happen scenario. To say it requires no concentration is likewise one of the dumbest things I've heard.


But this is grasping. I didn't say anything about the game taking no concentration. Hell, I didn't actually comment on the difficulty of the game at all. All I said was that it's not a gametype that attracts particularly high caliber players on a regular basis, which makes it easier to outplay your opponent and bypass champion imbalances (which in turn, is causing people like you to downplay those imbalances and then get royally pissed at anyone who disagrees with you on the subject).


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Wunderbar

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Momento Morì:
You're making my point for me, on all counts.


No, it's just you don't understand the fine distinction between what I'm saying and what you're saying. But that's fine, I'm sick of arguing against you.

Quote:

Admitting this, what's wrong with, from a hypothetical standpoint, making changes to the map to shift the balance to be slightly more neutral?
Because at this point you're not shifting the map to make it SLIGHTLY more neutral. At this point, the map is geared to be much easier for melee characters than ARAM. But the second problem is that, by making it easier for melee characters, you also make it even easier for AOE teams!

Most of the people on PBE right now kind of suck, so you don't see that many people that take advantage of this like they should but...

I can almost guarantee you: when this moves to Live... people with more AOE will, in general, absolutely trash this gametype. The problem stems from the entire map being made smaller just to help melees out. I can understand a small downsize, but this is rather major. You're already partially helping out melee characters by making it so that they start out with more money, and earn levels passively AND get more gold/second! Making EVERYTHING easier for them creates other problems and basically turns this into ARAB on a smaller map! And unlike ARAB you don't have an upper bushed/walled off area to protect yourselves from getting AOE'd!


Quote:

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings Wunderbar
Apparently you don't understand what trolling is, either.


Quote:

But this is grasping. I didn't say anything about the game taking no concentration. Hell, I didn't even comment on the difficulty of the game at all. All I said was that it's not a gametype that attracts particularly high caliber players on a regular basis.
Which is funny, considering I regularly see players with 400-> 800 more ELO than you in the lobbies, and, guess what? I usually do about as well as them, score wise. I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm generally a god**** good ARAM/ARAB player, and that I know what I'm talking about. I've played melee characters with good people in the room, and I've likewise been against good people playing melee characters. When the person knows what they're doing, you can tell (well, no, you obviously don't. So nevermind).


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WhackedRak

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
RiotNome:
Madred's Bloodrazor was replaced with Kitae's Bloodrazor because Madred's was inadequate as a counter item given its price point.



An aside: I think this is true for classic 5v5 too. Being the 3rd most expensive item in the game, it really isn't nearly as effective as other items in it's gold tier, Triforce, IE, or Deathcap, and the process of building it is pretty rough with pickaxe and recurve bow.


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Bloodragoon

Senior Member

06-14-2012

One thing you might want to keep in mined, is that the PG games can get to be quite long. Ive had 2 40min+ games and 1 55min game. Ive always felt and seen that ARAB and ARAM were like shortest in-between games where you join them while you wait for your friends etc, but not if its like 30mins+