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Proving Grounds feedback from an ARAM vet

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ARAM GOD

Junior Member

06-13-2012

EDIT: After reading all the replies, I see that PG is not intended to be for ARAM games, so there's no point to explaining why PG is not a good ARAM map. So, that said, I am now just disappointed that they are making PG available but have gone out of their way to make it unplayable for playing ARAM. Still, I thank Riot for giving us PG, it is better than nothing.


I love ARAM. It is what I mainly play. I've played thousands of ARAMs, and would say I have mastered the game mode. (Note: I have a main account too with most champs and like 50 skins that I have played from beta)

When I first heard about an ARAM map being made, I was excited. Finally, I thought, they are supporting this community-based game mode.

When I heard the ARAM map was going to include a bunch of changes that fundamentally changed the ARAM type, I was disappointed.

================================

SR map didn't need many changes to accommodate ARAM.

What SR needed:
1. Remove banned items from the shop: Occult/Mejai/Leviathin/GA
2. Block players from returning to shop/fountain. Optional: remove block when inhibitor is down.
3. Remove "non-mid" area.
4. Remove Promote/Teleport/Revive

That's all! Nothing more is needed!

Proving grounds does these things, which I am happy about.

============================

But then I hear about additional changes I don't like:

1. Health Buffs
-- This is all bad. It increases sustain (bad). It increases snowball (bad).

2. Increased starting gold
-- This is kindof bad. Right now you are forced to choose one starting item, just like SR. You can only afford one type of stat, so you have to choose your most important one. With increased gold, you can just cover a couple stats and not have to choose between them. Making the right choice takes strategy. If you remove choices, you remove the need for strategy. It dumbs it down.

3. Increased passive gold gain
-- This is bad. ARAM is supposed to be a low gold game. You aren't supposed to be handed a full item build. I think passive gold gain should stay normal, however I think it would be good to lower the gold gained from champion kills and assists. ARAM is not a game mode where you buy a ton of items. Sure, you might if the game goes long or you particularly dominate, but for the majority of the game people are not farmed up a lot. Changing this aspect changes the whole tempo of the game.

4. Increased starting & passive xp
-- This is bad too. As it is now, you spend a good portion of the game at low levels. You have to carefully choose your skill upon each level up, as you will have to live with it for a bit. Your first skill is particularly important to choose carefully. If you are just handed levels, you can just pick all skills. It dumbs it down some more, as you don't have to pick your skill order carefully.

5. Narrower lane
-- You need to have space to maneuver and dodge attacks. If anything we need the lane to be slightly wider.

6. Additional banned items
-- Why? The items have already been playtested and we know which ones are OP. The only other item I would think of banning is maybe wota, but even then most people don't ban that. If the community wanted it banned they would have banned it already.

====================================

Bonus changes I think proving grounds could use:

1. slightly decreased gold for kills/assists
2. lane slightly wider than SR lane
3. slight global magic resist buff
4. slight global healing reduction buff
5. slight global move speed buff (so people can dodge things)
6. make "random" force at least 2 ranged champs on each team (prevents large comp imbalances)
7. do not show the opposing team's champs (reduces Q dodging)
8. 5 minute Q dodge penalty (discourages Q dodge)

=============================

In conclusion, I think you (riot) are making proving grounds to try to be a cross between aram and arab. I can tell you the aram crowd is very different from arab. Arab is a "grand melee" type of game mode. There is little strategy involved in it. It is just a fight tooth and nail kind of map. I don't think aram people will enjoy their game mode becoming more like arab, and I don't think arab people would enjoy their game mode becoming more like aram.

I hope Proving Grounds gets fixed, otherwise people will just keep playing ARAM the old way and not change maps, or if they do change maps, they won't be 100% happy with it.

Just make a new map. Don't try to change the game. Don't fix what's not broken.

Thanks for reading.


P.S. I regularly run out of "IP gain" for custom games. The custom game IP limit should be revised so I can play the game I like and still get IP. I shouldn't have to choose between the gameplay I like or getting IP.


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NoseBlender

Senior Member

06-13-2012

The Riot team that made PG said they would be open to adjustments if the community felt that they had made it less fun in certain ways.


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Dyker0soft

Junior Member

06-13-2012

I, for one, never really played ARAM or ARAB, but these changes suggested would improve the matches by a lot.

I love the idea of not being handed free levels.

Take Ezreal for example. In a normal game you would have to choose between mobility and harass.
In this game mode you don't have to make that choice. You can pick up two damaging abilities and your mobility. It makes it a lot easier for you early, thus making you snowball.


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ARAM GOD

Junior Member

06-13-2012

I just felt I needed to make this thread because as it now stands me and a lot of my aram friends wouldn't even want to use this map. That seems odd, since it was supposed to cater exactly to my crowd. Thanks for your thoughtful replies.


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Tapyu

Member

06-13-2012

Just thought I would comment on this. and hopefully clarify the reasoning behind what the Riot team wished to include into the New Aram map. I'll start by analyzing your points one by one.

Quote:
1. Health Buffs
-- This is all bad. It increases sustain (bad). It increases snowball (bad).


These Health relics are used to solve a fundamental flaw in Aram. in which if your team had

champions that had no sustain was vs a team with sustain you would eventually be taken

out. This solves that problem somewhat by allowing a non sustain team to play more

aggressively. and be able to win trades. by taking the other teams health relics.

However it is not major enough to increase snowballs. as both teams are snowballing at

the same rate. and as one team becomes stronger they will eventually be stronger then

the other team in terms of items.


Quote:
2. Increased starting gold
-- This is kindof bad. Right now you are forced to choose one starting item, just like SR. You can only afford one type of stat, so you have to choose your most important one. With increased gold, you can just cover a couple stats and not have to choose between them. Making the right choice takes strategy. If you remove choices, you remove the need for strategy. It dumbs it down.


The increased starting gold in truth adds more depth to the battle.

The reasoning is that it allows you to counter build towards the enemy team.

with the original aram most will simply start either a. Boots (most likely) or b. a doran's itemor c. some wards and mana regen.

with this increased gold you can maybe buy boots a negatron cloak and a oracle extraction. to counter lets say a twitch and evelynn on the enemy team with 2 ap.

Also it allows for champions that need a early tear to be able to stack it up, without having to die and give free gold to the enemy.


Quote:
3. Increased passive gold gain
-- This is bad. ARAM is supposed to be a low gold game. You aren't supposed to be handed a full item build. I think passive gold gain should stay normal, however I think it would be good to lower the gold gained from champion kills and assists. ARAM is not a game mode where you buy a ton of items. Sure, you might if the game goes long or you particularly dominate, but for the majority of the game people are not farmed up a lot. Changing this aspect changes the whole tempo of the game.


I agree with you on this point, as i feel Aram is about distributing the very limited gold supply to champions that require it to get them stronger throughout the game.

with this massive gold gain it allows for a a very weaker champion to still be a threat to a very fed champion that hasn't went back to buy.

However no matter my thoughts on it. it was included to even the teams. and to let the team that is getting crushed to still be competitive in the fights. which I suppose is a good idea.

Quote:
4. Increased passive xp
-- This is bad too. As it is now, you spend a good portion of the game at low levels. You have to carefully choose your skill upon each level up, as you will have to live with it for a bit. Your first skill is particularly important to choose carefully. If you are just handed levels, you can just pick all skills. It dumbs it down some more, as you don't have to pick your skill order carefully.


While you may think the passive xp gained is large it is not. in fact 70% of the xp gained
is from minions and champion kills.

I played Taric one time with 0/9/21 masteries my team died and i managed to kill off the remaining 4 champions which bumped be instantly up to lvl 7 while my teammates just barely reached lvl 4.

so while it is there is a passive gain it is not like arab as kills and minions still give the same xp as summoner's rift and are still valuable.

I agree with the rest of your points however for the banned items I believe most of them are simply banned so as newbs do not purchase them. and become a weak link for their team.



Hopefully its decent, and it is merely my thoughts on the matter.
P.S. hopefully my grammar isn't to horrible as I often have issues with typing (carpel tunnel and all)


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Conjured

Junior Member

06-13-2012

I can see where you are coming from. I used to play nothing but ARAM, until ARAB became popular.

I prefer ARAB now because I find ARAM much too slow paced. If you are outmatched in champ select (e.g. a full melee team), the enemy will just snowball to victory, which is no fun at all for the receiving party.

In ARAB, because of the faster paced nature, it's almost a fair playing field, enabling a lackluster team to make a comeback.

With this map, Riot will not be able to cater to both parties. Some sort of exp/regen choice in the lobby would definitely satisfy both types of players, but I really don't think it would be a feasible option.

Overall, as an ARAB player, I personally enjoy the Proving Grounds. But they are definitely missing their main demographic with the map - ARAM players.


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ARAM GOD

Junior Member

06-13-2012

Quote:
Tapyu:
These Health relics are used to solve a fundamental flaw in Aram. in which if your team had champions that had no sustain was vs a team with sustain you would eventually be taken out. This solves that problem somewhat by allowing a non sustain team to play more aggressively and be able to win trades. by taking the other teams health relics. However it is not major enough to increase snowballs. as both teams are snowballing at the same rate. and as one team becomes stronger they will eventually be stronger then the other team in terms of items.

Health relics increase the sustain for BOTH teams. So if your enemy has a healer, now they have a health relic on top of that. A major aspect of ARAM is harassing your enemies until they simply run out of health. A healer makes this more difficult, but if you are harassing, healers can only heal so much. Giving them a Health relic just makes it that much harder to out-harass their healing. Besides, the counter to a healer team is to have full on fights and burst someone down instead of harassing.

As far as snowball, the second one team gets to control the others health relic, they have a pretty much permanent advantage of extra healing, enabling them to win more. That is clearly a snowball effect.

My suggestion to level the playing field with regards to sustain is have the dominion global healing penalty and leave it at that.
Quote:
Tapyu:
The increased starting gold in truth adds more depth to the battle. The reasoning is that it allows you to counter build towards the enemy team. with the original aram most will simply start either a. Boots (most likely) or b. a doran's itemor c. some wards and mana regen. with this increased gold you can maybe buy boots a negatron cloak and a oracle extraction. to counter lets say a twitch and evelynn on the enemy team with 2 ap. Also it allows for champions that need a early tear to be able to stack it up, without having to die and give free gold to the enemy.

So, starting with extra gold allows you to buy everything you need without making sacrifices of one stat for another, and you say this adds depth? Depth = making decisions. The way it is now, you MUST walk to the lane with one strength and the rest weaknesses. Starting with extra gold means you can always start with boots and some health and mana regen. Further, starting with extra gold means you are accelerated past early game. ARAM is the slowest of all game modes, and this is part of the attraction. You get to have team fights at level 1. You get to really play through those low levels. It's part of the fun.

I can tell you don't play ARAM much cause no one buys boots for a starting item. I RARELY see that. People usually start with Health regen or Mana regen, or second to that they will start with an AD or AP item. Dorans items are not that common because total health is not a highly valued stat. Damage and regen are more valuable.

I respect your input though.


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Geocorporation

Senior Member

06-13-2012

please note.. PG is a very viable aram map... but it wasn't designed solely for the purpose of arams.


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Tapyu

Member

06-13-2012

Quote:
So, starting with extra gold allows you to buy everything you need without making sacrifices of one stat for another, and you say this adds depth? Depth = making decisions. The way it is now, you MUST walk to the lane with one strength and the rest weaknesses. Starting with extra gold means you can always start with boots and some health and mana regen. Further, starting with extra gold means you are accelerated past early game. ARAM is the slowest of all game modes, and this is part of the attraction. You get to have team fights at level 1. You get to really play through those low levels. It's part of the fun.


Might as well comment on this part, that maybe I didn't express correctly in my first.

Is that in the example you gave about buying boots and some health and mana regen.
then in response the other team build more damage and goes for a more push build.

So even though you solved your sustain problem early, you had to take the risk of losing the early game.
In which case they in turn gain more sustain as they can get 2 health relics yours and theirs.
As in my previous example of the negatron cloak boots and the oracle extraction.

you give up extra hps and damage to be able to counter the burst from the ap and to be able to track and keep your other teammates secure against the stealth champions.
Now with that build you don't have the damage needed to burst them down in a early battle and they kill your teammates because of this.

That is how I think the strategy has changed from Aram to the proving grounds is that you have slightly more options good or bad that can drastically changed the battles later on.

So even though you still have more gold, you still sacrifice many stats that may of been what you needed.


And yes I don't play much of Aram, but i greatly enjoy it. I just don't have the time to play it very often. After all I'm still trying to learn the end and outs even after quite a bit of games played, as you only learn by playing people that know how to play it.

And thank you for your respectful comments, towards mine own.

Also I do hope they modify certain things about the proving grounds, one of which would be slowing down the early game. and also having us start at level 1, which is the only thing that I dislike about arab and the new game mode.


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7THLVL

Senior Member

06-13-2012

Maybe they could create an option that changes for ARAB or ARAM rules. ARAM will have the bushes, health spots, exp, gold boost and health nerf removed just good ol normal sr mode plus after the inhibitor goes down the summon platform WILL heal. ARAB will have all the current stuff they have implemented on the test map now.