AD/AP Range Champs...please stop going Glass Cannon

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FDru

Senior Member

06-10-2012

So earlier I was playing Fiddle, and getting focused and killed instantly in every fight by the enemy Jax and Durrrius. I thought, okay wow I'm getting raped by AD champs so I'll grab some armor. I bought an Omen, not Warden's Mail but full blown Omen.

I proceeded to get focused and killed instantly in every team fight anyway, regardless of fears, silences or Omen actives (I also had grail and negatron to deal with residual magic damage, and ninja tabi). I then thought, okay wow I just spent 3,000 gold for nothing and now do no damage and die instantly.

You say you can't expect the tank to keep you alive if you don't build tank items. But the fact is if they aren't doing their job extremely well (or alternately a support is), you aren't going to get away with just building a token defensive item (even a high tier one) and you're going to die anyway.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Levgre

Senior Member

06-10-2012

You always expect the tank to do their job "extremely well"? That's simply way off base. Everyone, even pros, make mistakes throughout a game. Or maybe you'll have to push alone, and duel someone. Defense items are more cost-efficient than damage, hence buying a little is in no way a "token purchase", but a viable strategy that lets you win fights.

I.E. If two Ziggs with equal gold are fighting each other, and one spent 740 on a negatron cloak while the other spent 860 on a blasting wand, the first Ziggs will win by a large margin.

If you are a Ziggs being chased by an AD bruiser, having armor to take more hits could easily allow your cooldowns to reset, so you can cast your abilities a second time. Casting everything 2 times is more damage output than casting them 1 time with 20% more damage, and gives you more CC.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GET REKT FGT

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
So earlier I was playing Fiddle, and getting focused and killed instantly in every fight by the enemy Jax and Durrrius. I thought, okay wow I'm getting raped by AD champs so I'll grab some armor. I bought an Omen, not Warden's Mail but full blown Omen.

I proceeded to get focused and killed instantly in every team fight anyway, regardless of fears, silences or Omen actives (I also had grail and negatron to deal with residual magic damage, and ninja tabi). I then thought, okay wow I just spent 3,000 gold for nothing and now do no damage and die instantly.

You say you can't expect the tank to keep you alive if you don't build tank items. But the fact is if they aren't doing their job extremely well (or alternately a support is), you aren't going to get away with just building a token defensive item (even a high tier one) and you're going to die anyway.
Randuin's Omen isn't great against a Jax (namely because the slow doesn't stop him from jumping you...not to mention the active is wasted if Randuin's Omen is the ONLY defensive item you've built) or a Darius (provided the Darius isn't a derp and picked up a Frozen Mallet at the bare minimum.) Bad item building from the get-go.

Have you heard of Zhonya's Hourglass? Perfect for a Fiddle (Destructive amount of AP + Armor, plus an ability that allows you to use Fiddle's ult and be unkillable at the same time for a short duration, effectively giving you some time for your spells on CD as well which means you can toss out another silence/fear and still do damage) It's called building effectively. It costs on 25g more than Randuin's Omen (3100g for ZH compared to 3075g for RO), if you're going to fully build a defensive item I'd say build correctly according to what you bring to the table and what the enemy team is bringing >.>

(I know you're possibly speaking on a hypothetical situation, but come on FDru, you're better than this)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FDru

Senior Member

06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekis the Seraph View Post
(I know you're possibly speaking on a hypothetical situation, but come on FDru, you're better than this)
How dare you.

Naw but seriously, Zhonya's gives the enemy tanky derps 2 seconds to get in the perfect position to finish you off. I build it occasionally, but find it to be extremely lackluster outside of the active, and the active to be lackluster outside of certain situations (like towerdiving). It's not a bad item, but it's not a win button either.

Omen may have been a "bad" choice (obviously, it wasn't doing the job) but usually it's extremely useful. And you can't sit here and tell me that Omen + Tabi + Grail + Negatron isn't a ton of defense for a caster (as well as prospector). The fact is that the problem Dominion champs (Jax, Riven, Panth, Poppy, Urgot, Cass, etc) are going to blow you up in seconds regardless.

To the idiot above you: yeah I expect my tanks to perform extremely well; if they don't then what is the point of their existence? And I can play the downvote game too, lol!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Panwar

Senior Member

06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levgre View Post
If you are a Ziggs being chased by an AD bruiser, having armor to take more hits could easily allow your cooldowns to reset, so you can cast your abilities a second time. Casting everything 2 times is more damage output than casting them 1 time with 20% more damage, and gives you more CC.
Maybe, maybe not. It's not as easy as saying "Hey if you would have had a chain vest you could have cast 1 more time and lived." There are millions of different situations, and sometimes more damage is better and sometimes more defense is better.

If you are a damage dealing champ, and you are getting focused, there isn't a whole lot you can buy to make your life better. Even the tankiest champs go down quickly when they have a couple of heavy hitters pounding on them. Sometimes better play either on your part, or your team mates part is the only thing that's gonna keep you alive. Sometimes your team is just counter picked and there isn't much of anything you can do.

Buying defense isn't a bad thing. But saying "If you are dying a lot you need to buy defense." isn't correct either.

Some champions do extremely well going glass cannon, and don't bring a whole lot to the table building any defensive items.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

06-10-2012

Building defensively is different for ranged carries, obviously. The fact you have no defensive steroid means in most cases you won't get away with wardens and what have you.

A heavily defensive build to me on a ranged AD is:
Heavy lifesteal
Phage/mallet
Either Maw or QSS depending on the situation.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

inFe eD

Senior Member

06-10-2012

If you need to build 5 thornmails to stay alive as a Ranged DPS, you need to stop playing them, period.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Forestgreen02

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
How dare you.

Naw but seriously, Zhonya's gives the enemy tanky derps 2 seconds to get in the perfect position to finish you off. I build it occasionally, but find it to be extremely lackluster outside of the active, and the active to be lackluster outside of certain situations (like towerdiving). It's not a bad item, but it's not a win button either.

Omen may have been a "bad" choice (obviously, it wasn't doing the job) but usually it's extremely useful. And you can't sit here and tell me that Omen + Tabi + Grail + Negatron isn't a ton of defense for a caster (as well as prospector). The fact is that the problem Dominion champs (Jax, Riven, Panth, Poppy, Urgot, Cass, etc) are going to blow you up in seconds regardless.

To the idiot above you: yeah I expect my tanks to perform extremely well; if they don't then what is the point of their existence? And I can play the downvote game too, lol!
You forget Jax is AD/AP. His burst is almost all magic and sustain is AD. The correct counter is AP + enough health. Get enough health to not get bursted down and a f ton of damage to kill them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

06-10-2012

If you think most of Jax's burst is magical, then I dunno what to tell you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cauldrath

Senior Member

06-10-2012

The problem with building big-ticket defensive items like Omen is that they are designed for tanks and either synergize with tank stats (FoN) or only work well if you aren't being focused anyway (Sunfire Cape, Omen's active). If you are getting focused, it's much more cost-effective to get tanky dps items like Zhonya's, MoM, Wit's, Athene's, Frozen Mallet, Rylai's, Abyssal, Glacial Shroud (yes, CDR is dps) or cheap, effective items like Warden's or Aegis. Having Glacial Shroud, Rylai's, and Athene's or Warden's, Frozen Mallet, Wit's is going to give you more bang for your buck than getting Rabadon's or IE and Omen, for example.

You can also try to get your teammates to itemize to be bigger threats. A tank that isn't taking damage doesn't need a ton of defense, so have them pick up a Sheen, Sunfire Cape, Haunting Guise, Abyssal Scepter, Aegis, Phage, etc., so the enemy team is punished harder for focusing you.

If you're relying on matchmaking... well, you might as well not play a champ that needs to be mostly glass cannon, because you won't be able to count on your team. This is part of why tanky dps rules solo queue, especially at lower elos - pure tanks rely on teammate dps and pure dps rely on teammates tanking.