AD/AP Range Champs...please stop going Glass Cannon

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Senior Member

06-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
You're a tank. Your job is to keep them alive. If they're dying, it's either their fault for standing somewhere wrong (possible) or because you didn't do your job right. Neither case is because they built wrong.
As the tank or any character that can CC or soak damage, my taunt and or inherent tankiness will not always prevent them from dying and any player worth their skill will know to keep off the tank until the damage dealing champs are dealt with. Taunts have cooldowns, and unless I play Shen and/or the other team ISN'T playing a character with some form of mobility (which is highly unlikely), it isn't only my job that they stay alive.

Whether they are standing somewhere wrong or being focused, their objective is to stay alive long enough to do their job, kiting and CCing all included. No matter how much of a "tank" I may be, I can't tank for anything that can't survive longer than 3 seconds in a 1v1 let alone a team fight. All that means is they'll pick off everything around the tank and save the tank for last, which has more than often been the case. That, or they (being the enemy team/character) survive the onslaught of being taunted/tanked (how, I wonder why...some form of Tenacity/armor or Magic Resist perhaps to give them that edge against their enemies?) and simply refocus back on the damage dealing champs.


Even you, being a skilled player (giving you the benefit of the doubt seeing as you're breaking even and barely below 1400 ELO), know to ignore the tank long enough (provided you're able to) to pick off their hardest hitting champs, as it's the basic strategy to Dominion. The smart thing to do would be to incorporate some form of survivability into your build unless the other team is half brain-dead. Then and only then would "full glass cannon" be effective. It's all incorporated into bad play, but you or your team is getting torn to shreds by the enemy team's AD/AP carry, the smart thing to do would NOT to continue building into full glass; no amount of tanking will prevent that and you know it.

Better yet, a great example...saved a Vayne in one of my previous matches against a LeBlanc, 2v1 and all the LeBlanc did was refocus them, destroyed them before the teammate could unleash his/her full skill set with one nuke, snared me and kept it moving. The LeBlanc was good, but I'll be ****ed if it would have hurt her (Vayne) to grab SOME type of MRes.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, that Vayne's build was all screwed up from the get-go...


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Helixes

Senior Member

06-09-2012

I want to put this in here.

If you are disagreeing with the OP you are in the wrong, and from what I can see it is due to either a misunderstanding of what he said, or because of a misinterpretation of tanking.

Going glass cannon may have a rewarding feeling since it has tons of damage, but glass cannon can be a really bad idea. Even with a large amount of life steal / spell vamp, if you have no damage reduction or bonus hp, you can easily be brought down by burst champions like poppy who rather than doing a fairly consistent amount of damage all the time have large spikes in the damage output, and the ability to quickly kill anyone with a low defense.

Being a carry is NOT about having the most of an offensive stat. It it about being able to competently deal damage in the team fights. Instead of worrying if you have more AD, Crit, AP, Life Steal, Spell Vamp, Attack Speed and such than the other carry, think of this. Which of you is doing more damage to the other?

You don't simply give yourself more effective HP buy buying a defensive item. You are reducing the amount of damage other players can do to you depending on their form of damage. For example, Thorn mail is a huge decrease to anyone doing physical damage, and wardens mail is great against Attack speed builds do to it's on hit.

The OP is not saying you should devote the basis of your build to tank items. What he is saying is that if their is a specific issue coming from the other team, like let's say they got a tyrn who always managed to get at you, but an armor item so that you won't be instagibed by him.

Tanks will try their best to protect you, but that is all they can do. Try. A tank being there does NOT mean you are invincible and can't be hit. It does not mean they can block and deny every hit coming at you. After a tank has used it's abilities it is unable to protect you untill they are back up, allowing a window of opportunity to attack a carry uninterrupted. And since any player worth their salt will attack a carry over the tank when presented the ability to, or really anything that isn't as beefy as the tank, you can't be surprised when they get you.

Normally in SR this can be helped by having a CC heavy support or one that can provide other defense or escapes to allies, but in Dom were people often don't play supports, and when they do don't attempt to support but carry, this window is incredibly painful to deal with. This makes having a means to preserve yourself even more important in dom. You need to be able to keep alive when the tank isn't able to do everything. The tank is there to help, the tank is not a crutch for you to lean on and use as an exscuse when you die.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
You're a tank. Your job is to keep them alive. If they're dying, it's either their fault for standing somewhere wrong (possible) or because you didn't do your job right. Neither case is because they built wrong.
This isn't WoW, or any other mmo. The tank can NOT forcibly keep every single enemy off of you with an agro table. An intelligent player will not waste time killing the tank. I can't believe people actually think like this in a moba.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

06-09-2012

Yeah, if theres one thing I notice when I play tanks like Malphite and Alistar, its that people just do NOT attack me.

I will almost always be the last man standing in a teamfight, cause no one on the other team is stupid enough to bother wasting attacks on the Alistar.

Ad carries need to build at LEAST 1 defensive item in midgame, whether it be Wits End, Maw, or some Chainvest item.
That item can extend their effective lifespan in fights by almost double or more.


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zionist shill

Senior Member

06-09-2012

An AD carries best defense is good positioning and a good tankline. But yes, you should always get a qss or a wardens/GS/GA or something after you have finished your first 3-4 items. The OP is just preaching to the choir here. And what I meant in my first post was if the enemy carry is worth his salt in any way, he'll be very hard to get to. So sometimes you just have to attack the tankline, or the tanky derpz that are trying to get to you. It's not worth it to blindly rush the enemy carry because you'll just get blown up. If you can get a good position where you can hit them, then do it. But in most cases you won't be able to get to them



Then again, most people just play tanky derps because they're so easy, so you won't really need to worry about that lol.


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06-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpIe Reign View Post
An AD carries best defense is good positioning and a good tankline. But yes, you should always get a qss or a wardens/GS/GA or something after you have finished your first 3-4 items. The OP is just preaching to the choir here. And what I meant in my first post was if the enemy carry is worth his salt in any way, he'll be very hard to get to. So sometimes you just have to attack the tankline, or the tanky derpz that are trying to get to you. It's not worth it to blindly rush the enemy carry because you'll just get blown up. If you can get a good position where you can hit them, then do it. But in most cases you won't be able to get to them



Then again, most people just play tanky derps because they're so easy, so you won't really need to worry about that lol.

That's why I didn't (and still don't) disagree, but as it seems I'm simply not just preaching to the choir here based on some of the replies... still, the fact remains is they should not build full glass cannon and expect to survive because there's a tank on the team.


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zionist shill

Senior Member

06-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekis the Seraph View Post
That's why I didn't (and still don't) disagree, but as it seems I'm simply not just preaching to the choir here based on some of the replies... still, the fact remains is they should not build full glass cannon and expect to survive because there's a tank on the team.
Meh I guess. Perhaps I'm giving these forums too much credit.


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Lindre

Member

06-09-2012

I'm currently working on learning to play a ranged AD carry in Dom (more specifically Ashe as I enjoy her kit, CC, playstyle, and aesthetics even if she's not super top tier), so I find this thread to be pretty helpful/insightful.

It's been a bit frustrating with the crazy amount of tanky derps with long range gap closers (with seemingly no way to avoid them if I want to attack at all) as well as likely low elo due to just starting PVP games. It's also frustrating because they seem to have better damage, better survivability, as well as better mobility. Even as Ashe with Frost Shot/Volley, I can't seem to kite them because of those high range low cooldown gap closers as well as the fact they also have a higher movement speed than I do (seemingly even when afflicted by Frost Shot). Maybe it's my teammates being bad, maybe it's my build that's bad, maybe it's myself that's bad. Maybe it's a combination of the above. But I've been having a pretty rough time.

If I could get some general advice that'd be great. I'm really looking to improve my game and face/tackle the challenge of playing a ranged AD carry in Dom. I'd prefer not to go melee tanky derps like most people as it's just not really my style or what I find interesting.

About when should I work on a defensive item? (I didn't know ranged AD carries were supposed to build a defensive item, so maybe this'll help with my severe squishiness) What type of item would be beneficial? Around when should I start working in life steal? General item build advice? (IE+PD just seems to take way too long to get as well as being weak until you get them) Any tips on positioning or kiting the oh so annoying tanky derps? What about Last Whisper in an Armor Pen rune build?

Any advice/comments/suggestions would be appreciated.


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zionist shill

Senior Member

06-09-2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NxlLE5S34Q&hd=1

Other than that, I'd suggest try and watch some high elo ad carry gameplay and analyze what they are doing in teamfights etc.


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Lindre

Member

06-09-2012

That was a great guide and very insightful, as well as answering some lingering questions I've had that I haven't found a solid answer to myself. I'm going to start working on incorporating that into my play, it should definitely help.

Thanks. Much appreciated.


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zionist shill

Senior Member

06-10-2012

Oh and I forgot if the video mentioned it, but it's also a good idea to try and pay attention to enemy abilities and whether they were used in a teamfight or not. Say for whatever reason the only way the enemy could reliably get to you is with a Malphite ult and a Ahri ult/charm, it's good practice to play rather conservative until you know for sure they are down, and if they are down then you'll know that you can play a lot more aggressive than usual.