AP vs Magic Pen Runes

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Dr Kasper

Senior Member

06-08-2012

Okay, so I saw a thread asking about flat AD runes vs Armor pen runes, and what the standard was on that. AD helps with last hitting, and Armor Pen with damaging enemy champions.

What about AP vs Magic Pen runes? Last hitting is not the case here... just raw damage for early game mage burst. Which would be better?

I mean, if you run Haunting Guise + Sorcerer's shoes + Quint/Blues/Reds MP = 20 + 20 + 21.5 = 61.5 Magic Penetration at about mid game. (+ 10% from masteries)

I'm just curious as to what works best in terms of raw damage...any input would be appreciated.

EDIT: So the haunting guise maybe isn't the greatest idea or greatest example. But Let's say you remove it... that's still 40.5 + 10% MP from masteries. Nobody has been able to prove that this is better than the standard AP build on Casters.


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Amoc

Senior Member

06-08-2012

Magic Pen reds are much better. With the mpen marks and sorceror's shoes, you pretty much have enough to negate the enemy's base MR, so you're almost dealing true damage early game.


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DrDooma

Member

06-08-2012

Magic penetration like that can not go below 0. Only magic reductions on an opposing champion can get a champion below 0. (things like abysmal scepter or fiddle's passive) What i am trying to say is that if an opposing champion has 50 mr in mid game, about normal for a carry building mid, and you have the build you listed above, you will reduce his mr to 0, yet not any further. (if you got a abysmal scepter or a void staff it would still be 0 by the way. Read http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_penetration for a reason why)

Now besides the fact that you wasted 11.5 of your spell pen (possibly more if you are nuking their ad carry, possible less if you are focusing a tank) we will now compute your damage. With the haunting guise you have 20 ap and nothing more. Lets say you have a skill like annie's q which scales at a .7 ratio to ap. At level 9(you said mid game) you could have this skill leveled to 5 and therefore do 245 base damage. .7*20+245= 259 damage. Without any mr this will do exactly 259 damage.

Now if you had chosen to use ap runes, and built sorc boots and got a needlessly large rod (yes this is 150gold more than a haunting guise but it is close). you would have roughly 100 ap give or take your rune page and masteries. Now, against that same 50 mr target, you would first spell pen away the 20 mr due to your boots, and most likely another 10% due to your masteries. 50-20=30 30*.9 = 27. So in effect the target has 27 mr. .7*100 + 245 = 315 damage with annies q. At 27 mr the damage will be reduced (100/(100+27) = .78) or 22% reduction. 315*.78 = 248.

As you can see. For 150 less gold you can actually do more damage during the mid game with a haunting guise and mpen runes than with flat ap and masteries.


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DrDooma

Member

06-08-2012

So what does this all mean? Absolutely nothing. Both pure ap and pure mpen builds are stupid and do not maximize your damage.


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XCodes

Senior Member

06-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDooma View Post
So what does this all mean? Absolutely nothing. Both pure ap and pure mpen builds are stupid and do not maximize your damage.
I don't see how you can say that. If you're not getting MPen marks on a mage, then you're not getting anything useful from your marks. Maybe if you play a Hybrid-ish character like Akali and don't want to overshoot your MPen early on with Sorcerer and Guise, you can use the APen/MPen combination marks, but APen does nothing at all for a hero like Annie.

Also note that if there's a hero like Annie on the field, which is totally capable of bursting down an AD carry, then the AD carry would be crazy to not buy a Banshee. You can optimize your damage all you want, and it won't mean jack if you can't live long enough to make your attacks, and that Banshee comes with +50 MR, meaning that we're now talking about a base MR of 100, not 50, and you're going to want all the MPen/MR shred you can get to break through that.


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Dr Kasper

Senior Member

06-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDooma View Post
Magic penetration like that can not go below 0. Only magic reductions on an opposing champion can get a champion below 0. (things like abysmal scepter or fiddle's passive) What i am trying to say is that if an opposing champion has 50 mr in mid game, about normal for a carry building mid, and you have the build you listed above, you will reduce his mr to 0, yet not any further. (if you got a abysmal scepter or a void staff it would still be 0 by the way. Read http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_penetration for a reason why)

Now besides the fact that you wasted 11.5 of your spell pen (possibly more if you are nuking their ad carry, possible less if you are focusing a tank) we will now compute your damage. With the haunting guise you have 20 ap and nothing more. Lets say you have a skill like annie's q which scales at a .7 ratio to ap. At level 9(you said mid game) you could have this skill leveled to 5 and therefore do 245 base damage. .7*20+245= 259 damage. Without any mr this will do exactly 259 damage.

Now if you had chosen to use ap runes, and built sorc boots and got a needlessly large rod (yes this is 150gold more than a haunting guise but it is close). you would have roughly 100 ap give or take your rune page and masteries. Now, against that same 50 mr target, you would first spell pen away the 20 mr due to your boots, and most likely another 10% due to your masteries. 50-20=30 30*.9 = 27. So in effect the target has 27 mr. .7*100 + 245 = 315 damage with annies q. At 27 mr the damage will be reduced (100/(100+27) = .78) or 22% reduction. 315*.78 = 248.

As you can see. For 150 less gold you can actually do more damage during the mid game with a haunting guise and mpen runes than with flat ap and masteries.
I seem to be understanding, so let's say this. Instead of Haunting Guise (because I'm wasting MP on a 50 MR target), I go ahead and go 21.5 MP on runes + 20 MP on Sorcer's shoes and 10% magic pen on masteries, THEN I go ahead and build as normal. (Double Doran's into a Rabadon's). Wouldn't this be more effective than flat or p/lvl AP runes?


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DrDooma

Member

06-08-2012

Xcodes you seem to have missed the point. Even with only 50 of the 61.5 mpen being used it still did more damage than flat ap. I completely understand that people could build more mr and get banshee's veils and the like. So when you argue that when they get more mr you are going to want that extra mpen I could not agree more, I am just saying that overshooting on mpen will hurt you in the mid game. (which was the question that was asked).

And from one Dr to another, Kasper i think you have it. With just 21.5 MP runes and sorc boots along with a touch of ap will easily out perform either of those previous scenarios. Granted, you wont have as much flat mpen so if multiple targets(3+) start building mr you will need to get a void staff. However, as I said, with low mr targets the entire mpen-ing effect of a void staff will be wasted, and your job as the ap carry is to nuke the other teams ap/ad carries(usually low mr targets), so dont go building a void staff if they dont have mr. You will just be wasting your money.


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Dr Kasper

Senior Member

06-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDooma View Post
Xcodes you seem to have missed the point. Even with only 50 of the 61.5 mpen being used it still did more damage than flat ap. I completely understand that people could build more mr and get banshee's veils and the like. So when you argue that when they get more mr you are going to want that extra mpen I could not agree more, I am just saying that overshooting on mpen will hurt you in the mid game. (which was the question that was asked).

And from one Dr to another, Kasper i think you have it. With just 21.5 MP runes and sorc boots along with a touch of ap will easily out perform either of those previous scenarios. Granted, you wont have as much flat mpen so if multiple targets(3+) start building mr you will need to get a void staff. However, as I said, with low mr targets the entire mpen-ing effect of a void staff will be wasted, and your job as the ap carry is to nuke the other teams ap/ad carries(usually low mr targets), so dont go building a void staff if they dont have mr. You will just be wasting your money.
I've been testing out the damage output vs bots, comparing both runes sets:

rune set (a) 21 Magic Penetration and 11 Mana Regen at lvl 18

rune set (b) 26 AP at lvl 1 (flat AP blues), 8.5 Magic Pen, 11 Mana Regen lvl 18

I ran them twice each uzing Gragas (as he has very high damage output good ratios)
Same item build the 4 times (Double Doran's --> Sorc boots --> Rabadon's --> Lich Bane)

I was testing how much damage went through Banshee's Veil (as bots build this item every single game, and all times against a Nunu with Banshee's for continuity)

Early game, as soon as I had double doran's+sorc shoes rune set (A) i could one shot the mage creeps with one barrel. With rune set (B) i had to follow up with a body slam to clear the back wave with the same rune set. As far as damage was concerned, After somebody else popped banshees, I could get in almost true damage with rune set (a), and less damage in with rune set (b). I couldn't get all the calculations, but I will as soon as I have a little more time.