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Wouldnt Darius be balanced...

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EzraTwitch

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
iDerp Solo:
Not to get personal, but were you on the legal team that wanted to argue the definition of the word "is" ?

Your example clearly indicated individual champions entering the middle of the enemy teams - even if you never said the word "solo". And to answer the question, I'd much rather the enemy AP carry run into the middle of my team, than for my Garen to spin into the middle of your team.

If you want to pretend that you weren't referring to "on their own" - then the question becomes: "Two teams rush into each other. One team has an AP carry and the other team has a Garen. Which team is in a better situation?" And now your position loses all credibility because you are comparing a specific champion with a role that the champion doesn't even play.


What is this I dont even.


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EndOsiris

Senior Member

06-07-2012

I am so sick of people crying about the fact that Darius' ult refreshes. It's part of the game, it's never going to change, get over it.


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iDerp Solo

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
EzraTwitch:
What is this I dont even.

Sigh, it makes me said... but I'll go ahead and lay it out.

Quote:
What would you have, Darius yank the enemy AP carry into the middle of the team where unleashes his whole burst before dying, or Garen running into the middle of the enemy taking the focus and silenceing the AP carry where he does nothing before dying.

That's what you said. Let's take out the extra bits that aren't important.
Quote:
What would you have, Darius yank the enemy AP carry into the middle of the team, or Garen running into the middle of the enemy


Clearly this is "Which would you rather have: Enemy AP in middle of your team, or your Garen run into middle of enemy team?"

So, is it the "Enemy AP" and "Garen" solo? Or is it with their teams? In the first case - the question is answerable, but the answer differs from what you imply. In the second case - the question doesn't make much sense.


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EzraTwitch

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
A Rope of Sand:
You make it sound like people will just let Garen waltz into them and silence somebody. It won't happen, and even if you do manage to silence the carry, popular picks like Nautilus/Alistar/Soraka, etc will just make your life harder to do anything either by CC or doing heals.

Please, stop trying to compare Darius to Garen because Darius' true damage and his bleeds make up for the lack of sustain he has by giving him an early game edge like Pantheon, another hero that has no innate sustain.

As Xypherous himself has even said, Silences are very rarely used on champions because you know, their effects in team fights are pretty ****ed rickety at best. You either get a kill from it and disable the opponent, or you know, nothing happens.

An AoE pull/disruption is all around better than a "HURPA DURPA I'M RUNNING AT YOU, PLEASE CC ME" attack. Especially when the pull trades the ability to apply Hemhorrage for a passive 25% armor penetration.


You make it sound like people will just let Darius waltz into them and grab somebody. It won't happen, and even if you do manage to grabthe carry, popular picks like Nautilus/Alistar/Soraka, etc will just make your life harder to do anything either by CC or doing heals.

Please, stop trying to compare Darius to Garen because Garens'Higher over all Damage output and his innate tankiness make up for his lack of true damage he has by giving him an early game edge like Pantheon, another hero with a defence steroid and high ad ratios

As Xypherous himself has even said, Silences are very rarely used on champions because you know, their effects in team fights are pretty ****ed rickety at best. You either get a kill from it and disable the opponent, or you know, nothing happens. The same can be said for any CC that still allows an opponent to move or cast spells

A tanky initiator with the ability to draw focus and soak damage is all around better then
"HURPA DURPA IM PULLING THE WHOLE TEAM TO ME, HOPE THE CARRY DOESNT FLASH AND LEAVE MY TEAM NEXT TO ALL THESE TANKS" . Especially if you ignore the inatior who is gonna melt your carry and prevent your AP from casting anything for 2.5 seconds.

I bring math, you bring circular logic (Darius is just better because he is) that can be plugged into any argument for any champions power.


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Von Nicklesnout

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
EzraTwitch:
You make it sound like people will just let Darius waltz into them and grab somebody. It won't happen, and even if you do manage to grabthe carry, popular picks like Nautilus/Alistar/Soraka, etc will just make your life harder to do anything either by CC or doing heals.

Please, stop trying to compare Darius to Garen because Garens'Higher over all Damage output and his innate tankiness make up for his lack of true damage he has by giving him an early game edge like Pantheon, another hero with a defence steroid and high ad ratios

As Xypherous himself has even said, Silences are very rarely used on champions because you know, their effects in team fights are pretty ****ed rickety at best. You either get a kill from it and disable the opponent, or you know, nothing happens. The same can be said for any CC that still allows an opponent to move or cast spells

A tanky initiator with the ability to draw focus and soak damage is all around better then
"HURPA DURPA IM PULLING THE WHOLE TEAM TO ME, HOPE THE CARRY DOESNT FLASH AND LEAVE MY TEAM NEXT TO ALL THESE TANKS" . Especially if you ignore the inatior who is gonna melt your carry and prevent your AP from casting anything for 2.5 seconds.

I bring math, you bring circular logic (Darius is just better because he is) that can be plugged into any argument for any champions power.


Yes, Garen totally has higher damage output when he's actually ignored for the better part of the later half of a game, whereas Darius' ultimate in itself allows him to remain consistent throughout the game.

Sorry bro, but pros/2000+ ELO players ban Darius farrrr more than Garen. Wonder why. Couldn't possibly because he's a better overall champion.


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EzraTwitch

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
A Rope of Sand:
Yes, Garen totally has higher damage output when he's actually ignored for the better part of the later half of a game, whereas Darius' ultimate in itself allows him to remain consistent throughout the game.

Sorry bro, but pros/2000+ ELO players ban Darius farrrr more than Garen. Wonder why. Couldn't possibly because he's a better overall champion.


Actually it's because they don't want people who haven't had the time to become skilled with him feeding. they usually ban new champs for that reason.

High level Garen arent Ignored, Warmogs Garens are ignored, because they are bad. Well played Garen are Kite or Die.


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EzraTwitch

Senior Member

06-07-2012

...I'm done.

What I learned today.

Don't get into arguments about champ viability with casual players.

(There is nothing wrong with being casual players I just wish you would all shut the he.ll up and stop getting champions nerfed that are perfectly fine with your bit.ching)
*thows Darius on the pile with Xin Zhao and Evelyn*


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Von Nicklesnout

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
EzraTwitch:
Actually it's because they don't want people who haven't had the time to become skilled with him feeding. they usually ban new champs for that reason.

High level Garen arent Ignored, Warmogs Garens are ignored, because they are bad. Well played Garen are Kite or Die.


Wickd has also stated that Darius has a "bull**** laning phase", so my point still stands.

People will ignore Garen because he's easily ignorable if he builds tank, and will be easily killed if he's glass cannon. Garen is just not that good of a pick compared to Darius whatsoever, and i'd be amazed if people actually play him in Ranked at high ELO, rather than the pre-1k area where people are stupid enough to be crushed by him.


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FromageEnroulent

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
EzraTwitch:
You can build health to counter him, Which you cant do for Garen, everybody has a counter.

Also you apparently haven't done the math. Assuming 100 AD.

Garens Maximum Burst versus a Single target=1706 (Not counting bonus damage from Critical Strike% which he would normally get)

Darius Maximum Burst versus a Single Target=1466 (Not counting bonus damage from Critical Strike % because he doesnt get bonuses from Critical Strike %.

Now do to the true damage and passive armor pen. Garen becomes weaker in damage output if they are building Armor and MR. But do to the fact that his Ult scales off missing health he becomes stronger then Darius versus targets that stack health. So in terms of dps, they are relatively equal.

However in every other aspect besides damage Garen is the clear victor.
Innate Tankiness.
Sustain.
CC.(What would you have, Darius yank the enemy AP carry into the middle of the team where unleashes his whole burst before dying, or Garen running into the middle of the enemy taking the focus and silenceing the AP carry where he does nothing before dying.)
Mobility.

Garen is better then Darius, learn math.


gratz, you managed to analyze a dynamic environment in a static sense. the fact that you even CALL Garen's damage burst is laughable, being that he has to sit on an enemy to actually use his abilities, not to mention he has to GET there first.

wanna get really mathy? go ahead and factor in CDs on their abilities. tell me who is more valuable in a team fight when Darius is Q'ing every 5 seconds compared to Garen's 10. so go ahead and double that damage for me. also, go ahead and factor in Darius' W with a CD of 3 seconds (with max hemo stacks), compared to Garen's Q at 8 seconds. Then throw in, eh, how about 2 max stack ults for lulz?


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BACKSTABUUU

Recruiter

06-07-2012

I like his ult being a rapid fire execute, I don't think removing that is the correct way to balance him, I'd rather opt for making it harder to pull off. Throw in a channel time, or lower the range, or something that makes it harder to do.