Some simple Volibear playability thingies

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Knight of Dusk

Senior Member

12-21-2012

@shorttallguy

I think what Volty is looking at is just improving (but not necessarily by straight buffing) what is already there, perhaps imrpoving his synergy across his kit and/or with the item changes of S3, not giving him a new kit or making him into something he is not. I wouldn't worry!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerglinator

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Hey Volty, while you're at it...can you do something, ANYTHING, to make Volibear feel more like an ARMORED bear? If you look at it, he doesn't really have anything that reflects the armored side of him...maybe he could get passive bonus armor from a skill? Armor scaling on something? Please? For the armored bears?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Knight of Dusk

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
Hey Volty, while you're at it...can you do something, ANYTHING, to make Volibear feel more like an ARMORED bear? If you look at it, he doesn't really have anything that reflects the armored side of him...maybe he could get passive bonus armor from a skill? Armor scaling on something? Please? For the armored bears?
This please.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Iklo

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Bump


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fist of Doom

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

12-21-2012

I play voli a lot. I am so glad the cast time on his ult is being addressed. I think it should be flat out removed (this would be more QoL, imo it shouldn't be there). Unless it was worth the cast time like volty said. I always want it to give me max stacks of W when I ult. It would give voli better initiating power, but wouldn't make his W stronger if you already had the stacks. I play health tank volibear. The new items are amazing for this. I think he needs a few small changes and then he needs to be played with S3 items. I like paying him tank and split damage dealer with really good peels. I don't want to be locked into a single type of damage as voli.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Iklo

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Bump


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JimMaru

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2012

shukmeister is right.

I basically LEARNED how to play this game with Volibear. I've been playing him ever since and tested pretty much every possible build I could on season 2.
The problem with Voli is that people want to go all-in with him like he is Riven. Volibear is about playing passively until someone else engages you. When they do, you punish them so hard they will start fearing the bear.

At season 2 I had one early game strategy that ALWAYS granted me free kills. I used to go Surge+Heal on him top lane and just keep farming passively until level 6, trying to avoid conflicts. After level six Volibear's damage simply skyrockets, especially with the old Surge on S2.
I've literally done this many times:
Post-lv6 just start putting yourself out of placement. Away from your minions and what not. This will encourage the enemy jungler to gank thinking it will be an easy kill. When you get ganked, ult, surge and just auto-attack the squishiest one. He will die really fast or try to run. Execute with W and focus the other one. With E and Q used at the right times (not as a combo) you will either get the kill or force the other one to run away very low.
With your passive and a well-timed heal (before blowing passive and before ignite [60% health or so]) you can easily face 2 champions without dying.

Of course, now that you don't have surge, this is just a dumb strategy, though you have ignite. The problem with Volibear is that he his kit is neither that of a tank or of a fighter. He has a LOT of damage on his kit but he needs to survive long periods of time to dish that out and after that he is useless because of long cooldowns.
That's why you need to build volibear as a Tanky AS fighter (and AS/AP e nice too with Rylai and Nashor for AP and CDR as my S2 core build).
You don't get Volibear at champ selection to sulk gazilions of damage or for strong initiation power or to be a carry assassin. You take him to force your enemy to make terrible decisions:
-Focus the carry and take 1500+ AoE damage on your whole team.
OR
-Focus the bear and let the carry kill everyone on your team.

The idea of having a AS/AP hybrid very Tanky Volibear is that he can deal absurds amounts of damage if ignored on team fights EVEN IF HE IS FOCUSING THE TANK. Without any AP 150 damage for 12 seconds with a 1 hit per second means 1800 magic damage to the whole enemy team. with some AP you can easily hit 200 damage per hit and have more AS than 1 hit/sec.

The problem is, his kit makes it hard for him to be played because he can't stick that easily and there isn't a Tank steroid on his kit good enough, just like Sejuani. At least he has his passive, but you shouldn't take that for granted early/mid game, when you will need it the most.

As someone who mains Volibear and plays him pretty much every time I log at the game, if it were for me to choose some changes for the bear I would go:

[Q]: Giving a bigger burst of Speed that decays over time is much better for initiations, but he needs to ignore unity collision. Bonus points if activating it removes slows as Garen's skill.

Why: He needs something that will give him better chasing potential, but minions are usually in the way. The "Burst" would make him much better at Ganking and Initiating team fights.

Why NOT: This could be bad for Top Volibear, because, if you know how to play him properly, you're not supposed to use this as a initiation top lane, but as a way to keep close to your target. Unless you can make it something like "50% movement speed that decays over 3 seconds. for the 3 subsequent seconds you keep only 10% bonus movement speed" could make it more consistent.
Or maybe give the bigger boost only BEFORE he flings.

[W]
This is the most problematic skill for me. It's the best skills he has if you have to choose what to level, but since you need to stack it you will not have anything on you when you're not attacking. If you get ganked the 5 points you wasted on this skill are worthy NOTHING until you start attacking the enemy.
For me the frenzy is great, gives synergy with his kit and everything but it seems to me it hinders him a lot.
It's the same problem Trynd/Renek have all over again. You need to auto-attack to keep stacks (of fury), but keeping auto attacking will push your lane which is a terrible move.
Also, AS is a very weak stat since he has no AD scaling and his ult doesn't last forever.

I think part of the passive should be actually passive (without stacking) and you receive a bonus for the stacks.

"Frenzy: Passively grants Volibear 3/6/9/12/15% AS. Every time he Auto attacks he stacks this effect up to 3 more stacks. (this way giving him the same 60% AS with all the stacks).

At max stacks he gains AD equal to 0,025% his bonus health and may activate this skill to bite his enemy for X+12% of his bonus health damage that increases by 1% for every 1% health the enemy is missing.

While frenzy is at cooldown the skill can only stack once, losing the AD bonus."

This makes the skill more reliable when fighting single targets as well as when not fighting at all. It gives him more reason to build health for more damage while his ult is at cooldown and makes it more interesting to play him as you have to choose when to use your Frenzy execute and when too keep it for more AA damage.

[E] Keep it like that, but make the slow stronger at earlier ranks, make the range for the slow bigger, but make the effect weaker around the borders.

[R] Passive: Volibear has 5/10/15% more armor and magic resist.
Active: Volibear is struck by a lightning (1 second cast) and slow enemies a area around him (size of an offensive aura) by 20% for 2 seconds. Enemies close to him are also paralyzed for .75 seconds.
Volibear also gains Max Stacks at Frenzy upon activation and doubles this ability's passive.
For the next 10 seconds Volibear's basic attacks create a chain lightning that hits up to 4 more targets, prioritizing champions. This effect deals 60/100/140+(0,25*AP) damage.

While this ability is on cooldown he loses it's passive."

The idea here is to give him more CC/Gank power while also giving that tank steroid he doesn't have. I think that the damage on the Lightning effect can even be weaker this way as a payoff for much more utility.

[Passive] "Chosen of the storm: If Volibear takes damage that would get him below 30% of his max health he is surrounded by a storm shield that protects him from 20% of his max health as damage. If the shield is destroyed, the shield discharges static at an area around him silencing and slowing enemies for 10% of their movement speed for 1 second."

Why? Ignite is by far now the strongest and most used spell in the game after flash. He will be basically always facing it and that makes his passive much weaker. Also, his passive doesn't make sense. Why is he the Thunder's Roar and the passive is called chosen of the storm, but this skill has nothing related to thunders or anything? =P

I think that these changes would be great on him, of course, with some number balancing here and there. I think that he was supposed to be an AP bruiser/tank rather than another AD one with the whole thunder thematic on him. He needs buffs on mobility/cc to stay relevant all the time and I think that his damage is a bit high currently, but he needs it since he has trouble staying close to champions and has no real hard CC.
He needs more Thunder interactions/abilities to give him that cool "Harbinger of the storm" feel he was supposed to have.

I don't think that, as you said, removing his AP ratios would be a good move. Why make him a Thunder based champion that revolves around biting people? That's just... weird.
Maybe making him the CC/Tanky opposite of Evelynn. She is an AP-almost-melee champion. But she is fast and burst-sy. Volibear would be the an AP fighter like Akali or Kat, but that is there to hazard everyone and fight for prolonged times while CC-ing the target and doing damage.

Making him an AD champion is just counter-intuitive with his thematic. Though it would be nice to have scaling that could make him take the path he wants depending on the game.
Like a fighter 1v1 Volibear or a AP hazard Volibear. (Scaling AP CC and AoE vs Scaling single targeted damage and Tankness on AD).

Just hope you guys don't remove the whole thematic on him of the Thunder's Roar. I don't want a Ursa clone. I like to strike my enemies with lightning without having to play Olaf.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Knight of Dusk

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Excellent post good sir! :D

I've put what I feel is very important (even if I don't agree with everything perhaps, everyones views should come to light) in bold. I want to further emphasize the points made in this post, because it stands out from what has already been said (or doesn't get as much commentary) in several regards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMaru View Post
shukmeister is right.

I basically LEARNED how to play this game with Volibear. I've been playing him ever since and tested pretty much every possible build I could on season 2.
The problem with Voli is that people want to go all-in with him like he is Riven. Volibear is about playing passively until someone else engages you. When they do, you punish them so hard they will start fearing the bear.

At season 2 I had one early game strategy that ALWAYS granted me free kills. I used to go Surge+Heal on him top lane and just keep farming passively until level 6, trying to avoid conflicts. After level six Volibear's damage simply skyrockets, especially with the old Surge on S2.
I've literally done this many times:
Post-lv6 just start putting yourself out of placement. Away from your minions and what not. This will encourage the enemy jungler to gank thinking it will be an easy kill. When you get ganked, ult, surge and just auto-attack the squishiest one. He will die really fast or try to run. Execute with W and focus the other one. With E and Q used at the right times (not as a combo) you will either get the kill or force the other one to run away very low.
With your passive and a well-timed heal (before blowing passive and before ignite [60% health or so]) you can easily face 2 champions without dying.

Of course, now that you don't have surge, this is just a dumb strategy, though you have ignite. The problem with Volibear is that he his kit is neither that of a tank or of a fighter. He has a LOT of damage on his kit but he needs to survive long periods of time to dish that out and after that he is useless because of long cooldowns.
That's why you need to build volibear as a Tanky AS fighter (and AS/AP e nice too with Rylai and Nashor for AP and CDR as my S2 core build).
You don't get Volibear at champ selection to sulk gazilions of damage or for strong initiation power or to be a carry assassin. You take him to force your enemy to make terrible decisions:
-Focus the carry and take 1500+ AoE damage on your whole team.
OR
-Focus the bear and let the carry kill everyone on your team.


The idea of having a AS/AP hybrid very Tanky Volibear is that he can deal absurds amounts of damage if ignored on team fights EVEN IF HE IS FOCUSING THE TANK. Without any AP 150 damage for 12 seconds with a 1 hit per second means 1800 magic damage to the whole enemy team. with some AP you can easily hit 200 damage per hit and have more AS than 1 hit/sec.

The problem is, his kit makes it hard for him to be played because he can't stick that easily and there isn't a Tank steroid on his kit good enough, just like Sejuani. At least he has his passive, but you shouldn't take that for granted early/mid game, when you will need it the most.


As someone who mains Volibear and plays him pretty much every time I log at the game, if it were for me to choose some changes for the bear I would go:

[Q]: Giving a bigger burst of Speed that decays over time is much better for initiations, but he needs to ignore unity collision. Bonus points if activating it removes slows as Garen's skill.

Why: He needs something that will give him better chasing potential, but minions are usually in the way. The "Burst" would make him much better at Ganking and Initiating team fights.

Why NOT: This could be bad for Top Volibear, because, if you know how to play him properly, you're not supposed to use this as a initiation top lane, but as a way to keep close to your target. Unless you can make it something like "50% movement speed that decays over 3 seconds. for the 3 subsequent seconds you keep only 10% bonus movement speed" could make it more consistent.
Or maybe give the bigger boost only BEFORE he flings.

[W]
This is the most problematic skill for me. It's the best skills he has if you have to choose what to level, but since you need to stack it you will not have anything on you when you're not attacking. If you get ganked the 5 points you wasted on this skill are worthy NOTHING until you start attacking the enemy.
For me the frenzy is great, gives synergy with his kit and everything but it seems to me it hinders him a lot.
It's the same problem Trynd/Renek have all over again. You need to auto-attack to keep stacks (of fury), but keeping auto attacking will push your lane which is a terrible move.
Also, AS is a very weak stat since he has no AD scaling and his ult doesn't last forever.

I think part of the passive should be actually passive (without stacking) and you receive a bonus for the stacks.

"Frenzy: Passively grants Volibear 3/6/9/12/15% AS. Every time he Auto attacks he stacks this effect up to 3 more stacks. (this way giving him the same 60% AS with all the stacks).

At max stacks he gains AD equal to 0,025% his bonus health and may activate this skill to bite his enemy for X+12% of his bonus health damage that increases by 1% for every 1% health the enemy is missing.

While frenzy is at cooldown the skill can only stack once, losing the AD bonus."

This makes the skill more reliable when fighting single targets as well as when not fighting at all. It gives him more reason to build health for more damage while his ult is at cooldown and makes it more interesting to play him as you have to choose when to use your Frenzy execute and when too keep it for more AA damage.

[E] Keep it like that, but make the slow stronger at earlier ranks, make the range for the slow bigger, but make the effect weaker around the borders.

[R] Passive: Volibear has 5/10/15% more armor and magic resist.
Active: Volibear is struck by a lightning (1 second cast) and slow enemies a area around him (size of an offensive aura) by 20% for 2 seconds. Enemies close to him are also paralyzed for .75 seconds.
Volibear also gains Max Stacks at Frenzy upon activation and doubles this ability's passive.
For the next 10 seconds Volibear's basic attacks create a chain lightning that hits up to 4 more targets, prioritizing champions. This effect deals 60/100/140+(0,25*AP) damage.

While this ability is on cooldown he loses it's passive."

The idea here is to give him more CC/Gank power while also giving that tank steroid he doesn't have. I think that the damage on the Lightning effect can even be weaker this way as a payoff for much more utility.

[Passive] "Chosen of the storm: If Volibear takes damage that would get him below 30% of his max health he is surrounded by a storm shield that protects him from 20% of his max health as damage. If the shield is destroyed, the shield discharges static at an area around him silencing and slowing enemies for 10% of their movement speed for 1 second."

Why? Ignite is by far now the strongest and most used spell in the game after flash. He will be basically always facing it and that makes his passive much weaker. Also, his passive doesn't make sense. Why is he the Thunder's Roar and the passive is called chosen of the storm, but this skill has nothing related to thunders or anything? =P

I think that these changes would be great on him, of course, with some number balancing here and there. I think that he was supposed to be an AP bruiser/tank rather than another AD one with the whole thunder thematic on him. He needs buffs on mobility/cc to stay relevant all the time and I think that his damage is a bit high currently, but he needs it since he has trouble staying close to champions and has no real hard CC.
He needs more Thunder interactions/abilities to give him that cool "Harbinger of the storm" feel he was supposed to have.

I don't think that, as you said, removing his AP ratios would be a good move. Why make him a Thunder based champion that revolves around biting people?
That's just... weird.
Maybe making him the CC/Tanky opposite of Evelynn. She is an AP-almost-melee champion. But she is fast and burst-sy. Volibear would be the an AP fighter like Akali or Kat, but that is there to hazard everyone and fight for prolonged times while CC-ing the target and doing damage.

Making him an AD champion is just counter-intuitive with his thematic. Though it would be nice to have scaling that could make him take the path he wants depending on the game.

Like a fighter 1v1 Volibear or a AP hazard Volibear. (Scaling AP CC and AoE vs Scaling single targeted damage and Tankness on AD).

Just hope you guys don't remove the whole thematic on him of the Thunder's Roar. I don't want a Ursa clone. I like to strike my enemies with lightning without having to play Olaf.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JimMaru

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Thanks Knight, I tend to get carried away when writing wall of texts and start being redundant and talking in circles.
I guess that what you put in bold text pretty much sums up the main points of what I posted for the ones who don't want to read the wall of text.
I believe that a bit lower cooldown at earlier ranks for his skills and the burst of speed on his Q would be enough to make him a viable jungle right now. He actually has a safe clear and some speed in it. Just his ganks are a bit bad right now...

Let's hope this thread leads to something beautiful. =D


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Because of the prevelence of squishier tops and mids I find that teamfights are determined much much earlier then before. In Season 2 my defense was worth using volibear and getting the most out of his ultimate but with the penetration changes I find that very hard to do anymore this season. Instant threat of champions is a very important characteristic in season 3.

In short, the ultimate generates very little immediately and a ton overtime threat. Because I find that overtime threat is much much less valuable I would NEVER pick volibear in a competitive comp atm.

Tons of fun in aram though which has constant 5v5 close fights for you to ult them all....but its not much use in a competitive game.

Increase the short term reward upon reaching melee range which may or may not include an ult that has more short duration threat on it.