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Some simple Volibear playability thingies

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Rossingol

Recruiter

12-18-2012

Quote:
Volty:
A lot of good discussion already! But also a lot of varying points of view.

I agree that understanding our desires for role and lane will be helpful. If you reply I request that you state your preference for lane (e.g. top, jungle, lane support) and role (e.g. tank, fighter, melee dps).

I will consider and do more research tomorrow.


AS A TOP LANE

In this topic, there are already a lot of points concerning his top lane stuff. As a Volibear player, I'd like to look into some of the pros and cons of him as I see it. Also definitely listen to Allorim he's probably the best Volibear player NA.

First I'd like to talk about what I see Volibear's role is, whether he is top or jungle (his two main roles).

He is either...

A) The tanky iniator. You'd run 9/21/0, build stuff like Warmogs/Frozen Mallet, Atma's, Spirit Visage, Boots of situation, Shurelya's, FoN, GA, etc.

B) The destroyer. You'd run 21/9/0. In season 2, this amounted to building stuff like Ionic Spark, Wit's End, Spirit Visage, GA.

With the advent of Season 3, with changes to penetration and nerfs or removals of items such as Ionic Spark, Force of Nature and Wit's End have all equated to several nerfs to both of Volibear's usual roles.

PROS and CONS to Volibear:

+Massive burst damage. His W HURTS.
+Fairly good passive
+Great early-mid game damage with ult
+Good at peeling once a teamfight has begun
+fairly low mana costs

- Massive cooldowns
- No sustain other than his passive, which is hardcountered by Ignite, which most tops take these days.
- Building tanky means he falls off late game and is fairly ignorable. Building him as an off-tank DPS makes him too squishy because he lacks a defensive steroid.
- Easily kiteable. In an age where most of the new champions of his type that are being released have some form of near instant gapcloser, or an ability to get close without being detected (Rengar's passive, Rengar's R, Jayce's leap, Vi's Q and R, Elise's Spider Form E, Hecarim, etc...) He has fallen far behind in terms of mobility.
- The effects of his Q are inaccurate. Sometimes, Volibear flips enemies to his side rather than behind. Some blinks, such as Ezrael's, will avoid his flip. Others, such as Tristana's jump and on occasion the flash summoner spell, will not.
- His Q lacks any sort of scaling. Even if it's just increasing the MS bonus or something as you level it, that'd be nice. Or give him some sort of tenacity boost so he can't just be slowed.

I think overall Volibear is a little weak. He has a lot of potential and his W is very strong, but some of his other skills are quite weak to compensate. Balancing might amount to taking some power away from his W/modifying his W into something else. Some people in this topic were talking about taking away the execute feature of W and making it into a burst damage skill in exchange for either lowering the cooldown or adding a short leap to it. At present, it can be unsatisfying to try and use the skill sometimes because they are always JUST out of your reach.

Also, he really needs a defensive steroid that is not his passive. He's ALWAYS going to be in the thick of things, and even Rengar has that massive MR/Armor boost. Kha has his 40% damage reduction, Riven has her shield, Shen has his, Garen, etc.

---

AS A JUNGLER

Though Volibear is listed as a jungler, even the Reds have said he's weak at the role, both in S2 and S3. I think that's in the 'jungle changes in s3" topic or something like that, where someone asks about whether or not Volibear will be more viable in the new jungle, to which the Rioter responds "no, not really. :/"

What contributes to Volibear's bad jungling is not necessarily his skill set, but the COOLDOWNS associated with his skillset. W is a good skill to have, because it gives you a pseudo second smite. However it is on a long cooldown and can't really be spammed. While E is a useful skill, it still amounts to taking a lot of damage in the jungle, especially on your first clear. You're essentially forced to use your Passive as sustain, which can be potentially dangerous if someone invades you.

So essentially, Volibear's clear is not fast, nor is it safe.

Just ran some tests. I jungle mostly. For comparisons of clear times, you can look at Stonewall's videos on youtube. All were done with a machete/pots start. All were done with 9x Atkspd Reds, 3x MS quints, 9x flat armor yellows and 9x scaling MR blues. All were done using the wolves/blue/wraiths/blue/red/wraiths route.

Test 1: 9/21/0, Skill order WEWQ. Time: 4:21 (atrociously slow.) Had 1 pot left at the end, around half HP.
Test 2: 21/9/0 skill order WEWQ. Time: 4:10 (still very slow.) Had 1 pot left at the end, around 25% HP.
Test 3: 21/9/0 skill order EWWQ Time: 4:11. 2 Pots left at the end, around 40% HP.

The passive usually returns by the time you're done wraiths or a little after.

To compare, I ran a standard Maokai jungle build. Magic Pen Reds, Scaling MR blues, flat armor yellows and MS quints. 0/21/9. Machete+5 pots, EQQW. Maokai finsihed at 3:45 with 60% HP, no pots remaining. Maokai is already one of the slower viable junglers, and yet he is not only faster than Volibear, but also far superior at providing gank presence.


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AlwaysBeCleav1ng

Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Volty:
A lot of good discussion already! But also a lot of varying points of view.

I agree that understanding our desires for role and lane will be helpful. If you reply I request that you state your preference for lane (e.g. top, jungle, lane support) and role (e.g. tank, fighter, melee dps).

I will consider and do more research tomorrow.



Volibear just needs his Q to have Trample (not the damage just unit collison aspect) like Alistar has.

this one improvement on his Q is really all he needs. even though i do like that his W slightly last little bit longer.

It would make Voli so much more viable as far as ganks, escapes, chasing, etc....


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TheWackyWombat

Junior Member

12-18-2012

You know, thinking about it, the main problem I have with Volibear's R is that I can easily put a price on it: 2750.

When you really get down to it, his ult is the equivilent of Runaan's Hurricane but on a melee character... without a proper dmg ratio... and only available part of the time. It's great early on but doesn't have any utility so it falls off quite quickly over time. Most other ults either have a high damage nuke portion or some utility, like a slow, stun, self buff, etc, that keep them relevant even when your team's behind.

The chain lightning may provide a sustained damage boost in team fights but the problem is that in the current meta that's not really useful. Most fights are over VERY quickly and rely on proper CC placement and burst damage, not extended engagements. I really enjoy the effect, but the ability is negligible when compared to most champions.

If voli kept the chain lightning as his ult I'd like to see either a AoE slow or single target stun on his first attack after activating the ability, not on the activation itself. It would give him a little more engage presence and combo well with his Q and W.


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Iklo

Senior Member

12-18-2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_j-5GPu0bI

I think this belongs here.


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Nbur

Senior Member

12-18-2012

his jungle is turible with his AOE stun resetting minion agro as well as his throw... this needs to be looked at aswell.


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Archainis

Senior Member

12-18-2012

I like Volibear for his initiations. Specifically, being able to charge in, flip a squishy and not worry about dying. I also like the zoning potential it has, especially while I'm laning with a high damage partner. Rolling Thunder makes things happen--regardless of whether or not you get a flip. The biggest buzzkills for me when playing Volibear are being kited (*cough*Jayce'sknockback*cough*) and being ignored if I don't have enough damage or utility.

I think Volibear's kit is conflicted. Volibear's kit has potential for both chasing single opponents (slow on Majestic Roar, Rolling Thunder in general, single target nature of Frenzy) and disrupting the opponent team (heal juking with Chosen of the Storm, repositioning with Rolling Thunder, AoE slow on Majestic Roar). Having aspects of both of these is what makes Volibear himself (so don't fully remove either one!), but he doesn't seem to be specialized enough to be satisfying in either function.

Personally, I'd prefer to have Volibear specialize in chasing/initiating since to me it's more bear-like to chase down a single opponent and maul them. Leave the best disruptions to the likes of Malphite and Alistar.

What is primarily appealing to me about the idea of roll E & R into one ability, the fact that it'll slow my opponents. To make it really ultimate feeling, it'd be nice (and probably ZOMGWTFBBQOP) if it feared champions instead of slowing them. I'm not really concerned about the damage because I'm going to be pumping out a bunch of AoE damage with my lightning bounces really soon anyways.

Most of the suggestions I've read through have something to do with increasing Volibear's tankiness or sustain. The reason defensive buffs are being suggested is because players want to be able to shrug off more harass instead of having to be forced back as often. However, I think real problem is that Volibear players don't get to catch their opponents as often as they'd like.

So instead of having the team disruption of a PBAoE CC, I'd prefer to have a chase tool. My favorite idea is to make Thunder Claws (R) start with a Frenzy-length gap closer that snares or stuns his target for the duration of the cast time. This ability would also extend the duration of the flip component of Rolling Thunder (Q) so that the target can be flipped afterwards. This would create a satisfying synergy with Q that allows Volibear to catch his opponents more easily on an ultimate ability cooldown. It also feels like your actually mauling your target.

I think this is a better solution than removing Volibear's self-disable because it retains the cast time, which allows the opponents an opportunity for counterplay if Volibear initiates poorly (ie "destroy the bear that just isolated himself!&quot. However, it's also really powerful, so it'd probably require nerfs elsewhere. Preferably, the nerfs would be in damage (which doesn't seem as appreciated anyways) so that Volibear can continue to survive his initiations.

I'm not too worried about it changing play patterns or seeming too different because it seems like a natural extension of Volibear's chasing, but since it's my idea I'm probably pretty biased. One other thing to note: I play Volibear the most in Twisted Treeline (because it's more acceptable to constantly roam), so I don't have much perspective on his Summoner's Rift top lane interactions.


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Rossingol

Recruiter

12-18-2012

bump.


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A bouncy Furret

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Bump! Let's get more discussion going on.


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Volty

Recruiter

12-18-2012

Quote:
Cyraknoss:
the proposed E change would flat eliminate jungle Voli while solving nothing for top. He's just not viable up there without some sort of innate CC blocker like Olaf's ult, or a spammable ranged farm ability like shen's Q, so changing him around top lane is a mistake. You wouldn't run Amumu top lane and you shouldn't run Volibear there either, his kit just isn't set up for it.


Yeah, totally not committed to dropping the E skill, was just an idea.

Volibear feels workable in either top or jungle right now, or is at least close to it. Solving his scaling / itemization might be all he needs for top to become strong.


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A bouncy Furret

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Volty:
Yeah, totally not committed to dropping the E skill, was just an idea.

Volibear feels workable in either top or jungle right now, or is at least close to it. Solving his scaling / itemization might be all he needs for top to become strong.

His issues in the jungle are from his passive proccing when you don't want it to (maybe just make it not proc from minion damage, but his passive can also be beneficial in the jungle which makes this a tricky issue), slow clear times, which could be fixed by giving Volibear hyper-enhanced damage on monsters feared by his E (something like 50% would be a massive increase to his clear speed).

But no matter how you build him you always fall into the late game issue of "I am a walking execute and fling"

One thing I think Volibear needs is a reason to not max his W first (and give his W scaling outside of HP). His other abilities have to be worth it earlier and threatening later.