PSA: stop buying LW on ad carries if Noone but the tank has armor.

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SavageWolves

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Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
The math is wrong btw, 10% + 40% is not 50% in this case, as they don't stack additively

pretty sure it is something like 46%
I have built LW with the penetration mastery and pressed c to check stats; armor pen was at 50%.


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Wolfalisk

Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kijik View Post
Here's a little math.
This is where i stop reading these kinds of threads


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corallein

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
this is if the enemy hasnt bought any armor at all, obviously its not worth it, if they have no armor you shouldnt be penetrating, you should be reducing, and with the amount of champions who have armor reduction (not penetration), last whisper isnt worth it. Last whisper is a counter item, you cant counter something if they dont have it to counter
All champions have scaling armor. At level 18, most champions will have 80-100 armor with no armor items or auras (eg. Aegis of the Legion). Take Corki. He has 76.5 BASE armor at level 18. Add in 9 armor seals and it's up to 90 armor.

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also penetration can not reduce armor below 0, reduction can. reduction is applied before penetration. all values of similar stat is added together, so yes LW + mastery is 50%, but this is applied AFTER the reduction is been in place. Add in
The fact that reduction can reduce armor to below 0 is in practice useless 99% of the time. The other 1% being when your team somehow has multiple champions with armor reducing skills.

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also ranged AD should be able to attack 3 times quickly, if you cant, what the hell are you doing? your not gonna end up killing people with only 1-2 hits, so clearly you need to hit them 3 times or more before they react to kill them, unless you plan on just kill stealing all game.
Any champion that gets hit by the ranged AD carry 3 times and isn't dead or borderline dead is probably the tank. Either that, or the AD is massively behind. Also ignoring the part where you often have to switch targets, either because the previous target is dead or out of range.

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last whisper will also wont help with farming much besides the 40 AD while getting a black cleaver does due to it being reduction and thus can reduce minions and jungle monsters thus farming faster and more efficiently. also 500 gold diffference isnt as much as people may think, should only take a 2-3 minion waves,
By the time you get a Last Whisper, being able to kill minions should be the least of your concerns.

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but bottom line, against champions with no armor, this is not a good item to get
No, the bottom line is that Black Cleaver is a better item early on when champions don't have much armor, but Last Whisper is a far better purchase overall for its vastly superior scaling late in the game. Oh, and other damage items are superior to Black Cleaver early game, so you'd never get it then either.

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plus its not the job of the carry to take care of the tank, the job of the carry is to take out the weakest link to make the fight 1 less enemy champion in the fight as soon as possible.
No, the job of the AD carry is to kill the highest priority target that they can safely attack. It's often not the "weakest link" because that target is often in the back of the enemy line, out of reach.
An AD carry that wanders in to the enemy line and gets CCed and killed is doing no damage. Often times, the only target the AD can attack is the tank. Or those tanky melee bruisers that are making a beeline for him or his similarly squishy AP carry buddy. Those champions almost always have armor items, and being able to drive them off ASAP is imperative.


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TheOneMillion

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageWolves View Post
I have built LW with the penetration mastery and pressed c to check stats; armor pen was at 50%.
No you havent, because you would have seen 46% Armor pen.


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acosn

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageWolves View Post
There are two reasons to buy LW when only the tank has a lot of armor:

1. The tank is going to go after you. If he's the only one in range, you will need to be able to damage and kill him.

2. It will discourage enemy players from actually buying more armor.

Also, consider that the AD carry will likely have the 10% Apen mastery, resulting in 50% armor pen, not the 40 you used in your calculation.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 Armor:

LW + 10% mastery: 100 armor -> 50 armor
BC + 10% mastery: 100 armor - 45 armor -> 55 armor + 10% pen -> 49.5 Armor.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 armor Last Whisperer is actually better, because it applies the same damage from the first hit, while BC needs 3 hits to reach full damage output.

Cleaver is a better early game item when the enemy's armor is below 100. With the mastery, ~100 armor is when LW will be superior.
%'age based penetration doesn't stack.

40% armor pen + 10% armor pen =/= 50% armor pen.

It's difficult at best to calculate the damage bonus a black cleaver does because you drop the target's armor, you're not improving your own armor penetration. If you're calculating it purely based on the solo act it's best role is for killing carries actually.

Regardless, a Last Whisperer is, strictly speaking, a 30 minute item at best unless the enemy team has all the wrong people getting fed.


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Nax Karaal

Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by corallein View Post
No, the job of the AD carry is to kill the highest priority target that they can safely attack. It's often not the "weakest link" because that target is often in the back of the enemy line, out of reach.
An AD carry that wanders in to the enemy line and gets CCed and killed is doing no damage. Often times, the only target the AD can attack is the tank. Or those tanky melee bruisers that are making a beeline for him or his similarly squishy AP carry buddy. Those champions almost always have armor items, and being able to drive them off ASAP is imperative.
This is really something that the community should learn. I have a friend that have fourth time my number of game and will still try to get to the other AD carry or AP carry, even if he is far away in the backline.

Erf, started to write a lot, but it would just be redondent.

You constently switch of target, you don't benefit of the passive.

I don't think that there is anything more to say.


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Saint Serpentine

Junior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageWolves View Post
There are two reasons to buy LW when only the tank has a lot of armor:

1. The tank is going to go after you. If he's the only one in range, you will need to be able to damage and kill him.

2. It will discourage enemy players from actually buying more armor.

Also, consider that the AD carry will likely have the 10% Apen mastery, resulting in 50% armor pen, not the 40 you used in your calculation.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 Armor:

LW + 10% mastery: 100 armor -> 50 armor
BC + 10% mastery: 100 armor - 45 armor -> 55 armor + 10% pen -> 49.5 Armor.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 armor Last Whisperer is actually better, because it applies the same damage from the first hit, while BC needs 3 hits to reach full damage output.

Cleaver is a better early game item when the enemy's armor is below 100. With the mastery, ~100 armor is when LW will be superior.
Lol I dunno why they downvote people for using math. If more people did this game would be a lot more fun.


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SodiumAzide

Senior Member

06-05-2012

Well not that I endorse downvotes for any legitimate attempt at math or the like but a good reason is when the math is incorrect.

A bunch of people put alot of time into the question of LW vs BC and the end result is that given almost any time frame longer than 3 seconds BC does more damage than LW regardless of armor values. Literally almost all the way up to nearly 200 armor. Once you have a timeframe of more than 8 or so seconds BC has to have more than 200 armor to level off and even then it is doing only a fraction less DPS than LW.

Here is the thing. For every point of damage that you are getting from the armor pen on LW you are losing it back when BC's extra AS gives you another attack that the LW guy doesn't get.

http://clgaming.net/forums/board39-r...hisper-part-1/
http://clgaming.net/forums/board39-r...hisper-part-2/

If you are an autoattacking AD you will almost always be better with BC. If you are a caster type AD who does everything in a single burst then you are going to be wanting LW. So sivir and graves are gonna want that LW but kogmaw and tristana are going to want BC.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

06-05-2012

I donno where people are getting the idea that penetration does not stack additionally, if someone has some valid comfirmation if this is true, please link your source

from my understanding they do, what I have a feeling is that people are confusing penetration and reduction, they do not stack additionally. the order of calculation is flat reduction -> % reduction -> flat penetration -> % penetration, the wiki also supports this data but like all wikis they arent always 100% correct, though its been there for ages and no one has corrected it so I can only assume its the correct formula

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration

edit: my applogize, it is multiplictivly on the wiki as well,


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Aggressive Ewe

Senior Member

06-05-2012

You are correct. Though one should by the Cleaver for the AD and AS not it's passive. It is more important to max DPS for any carry than it is to max damage namely because the effectiveness of your assault relies heavily on it.


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