Stronger HP Scaling

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Aggressive Ewe

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Why is it that Atma's and Force of Nature scale so poorly to HP? I can understand Force of Nature to some extent but I am more interested in Atma's and any "dream items" that should exist for AP / AD tanks. Stacking HP is not anywhere near as effective as stacking Mana ( or any other stat ) which just seems a little off to me simple because in the realm of AP you can get a lot of HP as well but in the realm of HP you get almost nothing.

It's not so much a complaint as it is a question of reasoning.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

06-02-2012

FoN doesn't scale well with HP? It's 1.75% of max HP per 5 seconds, at the very least a 26 HP regen boost (on top of the base 40). Until your champion has >2285 health, the base regen is actually more effective than the passive, meaning it's healing for more than that % of your HP. And then after that, the regen factor increases, making the % value more useful.

Point: It scales low with HP because the base regen is also taken into account, which makes the passive effect much stronger. And it has a ton of MR, making it a really nice anti-caster item, block their burst and then heal back up.

Atma's, for a while, became FotM for an item because it scaled really well. A lot of people were building it as a second or third item, and it was actually effective like that. This was not a problem in Atma's design, but rather certain champions (Lee Sin, for one) having ridiculous AD ratios and/or steroids, innate offense/defense, or a good reason to build HP.

Point: It was lowered because it's a late-game offense+defense booster, it's still effective for its cost but now it's not giving a BF sword for a bit over 2000 HP (which some champions have naturally).

That and we've also got %HP boosts in masteries and runes, HP-increased damage (Frenzy), and more AD ratios.


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Aggressive Ewe

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeadman View Post
FoN doesn't scale well with HP? It's 1.75% of max HP per 5 seconds, at the very least a 26 HP regen boost (on top of the base 40). Until your champion has >2285 health, the base regen is actually more effective than the passive, meaning it's healing for more than that % of your HP. And then after that, the regen factor increases, making the % value more useful.
That would be my point.

Quote:
Point: It scales low with HP because the base regen is also taken into account, which makes the passive effect much stronger. And it has a ton of MR, making it a really nice anti-caster item, block their burst and then heal back up.
What I wonder is why it doesn't just scale to real HP rather than give solid HP regen + "some extra". Perhaps I am not taking into account those who would have 5000 HP or more but at the same time they gain 120 HP regen from the item itself including both totals as it is with potential for a 15% boost.

I must be overthinking it.That's my only explanation since the min. regen you can get from the item is 66 HP/5 as it has 40 hard and then the %. A stronger percentage weakens the item for weaker chars and strengthens it for stackers though.

Quote:
Atma's, for a while, became FotM for an item because it scaled really well. A lot of people were building it as a second or third item, and it was actually effective like that. This was not a problem in Atma's design, but rather certain champions (Lee Sin, for one) having ridiculous AD ratios and/or steroids, innate offense/defense, or a good reason to build HP.

Point: It was lowered because it's a late-game offense+defense booster, it's still effective for its cost but now it's not giving a BF sword for a bit over 2000 HP (which some champions have naturally).

That and we've also got %HP boosts in masteries and runes, HP-increased damage (Frenzy), and more AD ratios.
Atma's impaler, if you had 5000 HP, gives 75 AD. The item itself gives no AD so unlike Force of Nature which has a hard base there is no base. It's just armor with crit and nearly no attack power. I guess I don't see why one would build the item since as you said it's not adding any real AD for the cost. It's not useless but it's not really an AD item. The only thing is I don't see where it'd be "niche". Aside from myself I have never seen it built. I have never seen it in a build guide either. Not saying that this is surprising but I cannot fathom where to put it's current version.


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Chlose

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Senior Member

06-02-2012

The warmogs + atmas + trinity force metagolem phase was awful... Due to it, warmogs got 100 less stacked hp, and less regen i think, and atmas got ticked down by half a %. Simple version of the other poster.


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Aggressive Ewe

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlose View Post
The warmogs + atmas + trinity force metagolem phase was awful... Due to it, warmogs got 100 less stacked hp, and less regen i think, and atmas got ticked down by half a %. Simple version of the other poster.
I just don't think they should have changed both per se. Warmogs I saw. Atma's when it was 2% was at least viable. 1.5% is sadly a joke.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

06-02-2012

2% made it 20 AD per 1000, 1.5% makes it 15 per 1000.

It's hardly a loss if you're not stacking a ton of HP, and if you are, why are you stacking so much HP? Deathfire Grasp and (despite being overpriced) Madred's Bloodrazor live for that sort of build.

I've heard all the arguments people made for trying to return the ratio, but honestly they're as paper-thin as the 10-15 AD difference I get when I build it. It still gives a noticeable DPS boost as well as good Armor. For cheap.


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Titan9900

Senior Member

06-03-2012

Riot want only certain champions to pick atmas. If it scaled any better you get to many champions picking it up and just building health.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

06-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan9900 View Post
Riot want only certain champions to pick atmas. If it scaled any better you get to many champions picking it up and just building health.
That's effectively what the Atmog's meta was. Mercs, Warmogs, Atma's would give your champion respectable resilience and damage output without accounting for another 3 item slots. Then Trinity Force for Tons of DamageŠ and I think Wit's End was in there for AS and MR.

It was a ridiculous setup that was overly popular on most AD champs. Now it's a niche item, providing enough AD and Armor to be worth it on a bruiser who scales well with it, without being a go-to on anyone and their dog that scales on AD.

Kinda hilarious how 100 HP and 10-20 bonus AD shifted that entirely.


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trancepticom

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Senior Member

06-03-2012

What are you talking about, FoN has amazing scaling. With a warmogs im usually around 200 hp5, and ive been up to 300 hp5 (on a maokai no less, so much healing) with a pretty typical build. Probably around 300hp5 with a Spirit Visage and other hp or hp5 item.


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Xnot

Senior Member

06-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Ewe View Post
I just don't think they should have changed both per se. Warmogs I saw. Atma's when it was 2% was at least viable. 1.5% is sadly a joke.
You have to be ****ing kidding me.

Atama's doesn't give any additional Armor or Crit on combine so you are effectively paying 825 gold for the passive and combining 2 items in 1 slot.

The champion with lowest HP at level 18 is Anivia at 1610, which would give her 32.2 AD before nerf and 24.15 AD with the current Atama's.

Comparing to a Pickaxe you get 975 / 25 = 39 gold/AD and and current Atama's is 825 / 24.15 = 34.16 gold/AD. With BF Sword it's still higher.

Tl;Dr - Atama's is over 100% cost efficient WITH NO HEALTH ITEMS AND ON THE CHAMPION WITH THE LEAST HEALTH IN THE GAME, before the nerf it was just absolutely ridiculous.


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