@Morello, can we talk about Urgot?

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TenDz

Senior Member

10-24-2012

bump! need details!


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Dragoonix

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
My thought here is that we overnerfed Urgot, but he also lacks counter-play for being such a unique kit otherwise. It makes it so if he's really good, he just poops on the game a bit, but he is pretty fun and distinct.

After Season 3, FeralPony is gonna look at some ways we can fix this under the hood - along with new itemization that makes sense for him. Not a full rework, but some smart changes that make him a bit more healthy as a character (and therefore lets us more sensibly balance him).
This sounds good on paper an all (other than the season 3 bit) but can you point to any time urgot has actually dominated high level play? The nerfs to him have to be some of the harshest I've ever seen. He went from playable in a niche by skilled individuals, to LOL time to dodge someone picked urgot.


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Ganelon

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Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
What if Urgot's abilities had better AD scaling, but only scaled with Bonus AD? Then his base stats could still be formidable, but his scaling per level being lower to bring him more into line with other late game champs? That way, if you wanted late game damage, you would have to build it? Or are there better ways to provide a place for him in the current meta as a ranged disruptor?
This is literally the exact thing Riot did and then apologized for and reverted. It was in the same patch as the Stealth Rework. The exact scaling was changed to 1.2 AD and I believe he got 40 base damage per level to compensate for the lack of initial AD.

Riot believed this was unfair to Urgot players. I never understood how, given how I could have the same damage on my Acid Hunter as a level 18 Urgot with a Manamune and Bloodthirster with those same items, simply by having them at any point in the game. And things only got better if I chose to itemize even further towards AD.


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TenDz

Senior Member

10-24-2012

dont fUrgot!


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
This is literally the exact thing Riot did and then apologized for and reverted. It was in the same patch as the Stealth Rework. The exact scaling was changed to 1.2 AD and I believe he got 40 base damage per level to compensate for the lack of initial AD.

Riot believed this was unfair to Urgot players. I never understood how, given how I could have the same damage on my Acid Hunter as a level 18 Urgot with a Manamune and Bloodthirster with those same items, simply by having them at any point in the game. And things only got better if I chose to itemize even further towards AD.
Haha, that's too funny. As far as unfairness goes, I could see how he might be underpowered with such low scaling, since his abilities are where his damage is. You don't build AS and Crit chance on Urgot because he doesn't operate like an ADC, he is more like an AD Caster in that you chunk enemies with your abilities. And since his abilities wouldn't scale with Base AD, you need good scaling if you want to base it around Bonus AD. Then again, I don't exactly know what constitutes good scaling. So in your opinion, how did Stealth Rework Urgot stack up to Release Urgot and Current Urgot?


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Ganelon

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Senior Member

10-25-2012

Well, that's the thing. Stealth Rework Urgot is the current Urgot. They returned his scaling but kept all of the other nerfs that you're currently living with (or avoiding the champion altogether because of) today. The cutoff point where the former Acid Hunter scaling provided the same damage before the change as it did after with the same items and at level 18, was 160 bonus AD. Past that you're talking about an ability with 1.2 AD scaling on a 2-1.2 second cooldown, so it was pretty awesome for the week I was allowed to run around with it before the scaling was reverted, but I could see how the tanky Urgot players might have been more than just a little upset at how ineffective the nerf rendered what is essentially their auto-attack. Not everyone finds 160 bonus AD a reasonable goal like I do.

Of course, as this all happened at the same time as the range nerfs on Acid Hunter, the potential damage I could achieve was the only awesome thing about it. Still, for someone who builds a Manamune and Bloodthirster before he hits the level cap, I was more than happy with the new scaling.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
Well, that's the thing. Stealth Rework Urgot is the current Urgot. They returned his scaling but kept all of the other nerfs that you're currently living with (or avoiding the champion altogether because of) today. The cutoff point where the former Acid Hunter scaling provided the same damage before the change as it did after with the same items and at level 18, was 160 bonus AD. Past that you're talking about an ability with 1.2 AD scaling on a 2-1.2 second cooldown, so it was pretty awesome for the week I was allowed to run around with it before the scaling was reverted, but I could see how the tanky Urgot players might have been more than just a little upset at how ineffective the nerf rendered what is essentially their auto-attack. Not everyone finds 160 bonus AD a reasonable goal like I do.

Of course, as this all happened at the same time as the range nerfs on Acid Hunter, the potential damage I could achieve was the only awesome thing about it. Still, for someone who builds a Manamune and Bloodthirster before he hits the level cap, I was more than happy with the new scaling.
It just makes sense for him to scale with itemization, since he is after all a reanimated corpse. One in need of a little more reanimating, I'm sure we can all agree. What if his Terror Capacitor scaled with HP? Then Tanky Urgot players could focus more on AD and health, and less on stacking resistances. Sure, you wouldn't be supremely tanky at all times, but you could still be tanky when you need to be by activating your W (I think it was W). Too strong?
Truthfully, I can't really see why tanky urgots would have trouble building AD though. Did they not have Maw of Malmortius back then? I LOVE that item.


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TenDz

Senior Member

10-26-2012

Still an issue!


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Ganelon

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Senior Member

10-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
It just makes sense for him to scale with itemization, since he is after all a reanimated corpse. One in need of a little more reanimating, I'm sure we can all agree. What if his Terror Capacitor scaled with HP? Then Tanky Urgot players could focus more on AD and health, and less on stacking resistances. Sure, you wouldn't be supremely tanky at all times, but you could still be tanky when you need to be by activating your W (I think it was W). Too strong?
Truthfully, I can't really see why tanky urgots would have trouble building AD though. Did they not have Maw of Malmortius back then? I LOVE that item.
I think the problem was a matter of item availability. None of the common bruiser items like Triforce are really effective on Urgot unless you play him like a melee champion, and taking away his base AD scaling probably made it too difficult to deal damage without building for it. Maw of Malmortius is only one item, and beyond that and Frozen Heart, there really isn't anything left for a tanky Urgot to build. You can start going into damage then, but the point in the game where your damage will actually be effective will have long since passed you by, and even competing with other bruisers will make you look pretty useless on that front.

Honestly, it doesn't even matter to me. I acknowledge that some people like to build Urgot that way and that Riot feels a need to accommodate them, but I do not. I play Urgot for his long range sustained damage, and I wouldn't think twice if his viability as a bruiser was permanently scrapped. It would be nice if more champions had multiple effective styles, but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the ones I don't intend to use. You'll have to ask someone else if you want any real detail on the subject of bruiser Urgot.


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Mad Grey Wolf

Senior Member

10-26-2012

@Morello

Can you please just make him overpowered so I can have fun with him for a couple weeks?