@Morello, can we talk about Urgot?

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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostStalker86 View Post
Why did urgot go untouched for so long, and then suddenly nerf? I was in love with my urgot, bought the skin and everything. And then a month later (or something along those lines) BOOM! Nerfs up the wazoo. And I stopped playing him. Urgot had plenty of weaknesses. You just couldn't send Support/ADC Bot and give all your CS to your ADC. I've found out that against urgot, you have to send A Mage with CC + an ADC. That CC really screws urgots lanning, and with his shield being nerfed, can't really tank through the damage like he could (and you cant use the shield while CCed anyway).

Urgot just can't deal with CC that early in a lane. But I feel like you only nerfed urgot so that you could continue the same playstyle of ADC bot, and support bot, which quite frankly doesn't work against urgot.

Viktor/Varus bot is actually an extremely mean combo that rips into Urgot and his laning support partner.
Im kinda new at this, never knew Urgot in his former glory, but I have heard tales that he was a lane bully worthy of legend. Was he actually able to 1v2 bot lane and thus throw a wrench in the current meta? The idea intrigues me, as Riot has made quite a few statements about wanting to increase diversity of strategy in the game. And while you aren't likely to score kills in a 1v2, it is excellent for leveling quickly. And sneaky lane swaps are a valid strategy, right?


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

10-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
Im kinda new at this, never knew Urgot in his former glory, but I have heard tales that he was a lane bully worthy of legend. Was he actually able to 1v2 bot lane and thus throw a wrench in the current meta? The idea intrigues me, as Riot has made quite a few statements about wanting to increase diversity of strategy in the game. And while you aren't likely to score kills in a 1v2, it is excellent for leveling quickly. And sneaky lane swaps are a valid strategy, right?
The idea is that as soon as you hit an enemy with E, you can lock on (never miss) with Q and spam it until you run out of mana, they get really far away, or force you out of position. In short, his E+Q combo is his AA, but can really ruin the enemy lane. He's more of a utility and bully type of fighter, due to his tanky steroids, passive damage reduction, and Ultimate. His passive (which procs on Q) gives him an advantage in early laning becaue he'll be dealing more damage then he receives. The problem with Urgot, as I see it, is that when he was super powerful his late game was always kind of hit-or-miss (especially if you weren't "pro" with him), but with his nerfs that late game got reduced further, along with his early game.

Morello brought up an interesting point which is Urgot's kit as a whole. I see it know as if it's not powerful enough (as it is currently), then Urgot has no real presence past a certain point, especially if you replace your AD carry with Urgot (who isn't an AD Carry). If it's too powerful or poweful enough to be strong (like Urgot was) then his play almost becomes Toxic because he'll deny you in the early game and carry that punishment throughout the game to where he's 100% picked/banned because of that potential.


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Ganelon

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Senior Member

10-22-2012

I find the idea of an Urgot player winning his lane in a 1v2 very unlikely. His kit punishes passive play because it allows him to deal damage to anyone hit by a corrosive charge through the kind of obstacles that would stop nearly any other form of harassment, but his kiting potential is strictly single-target and his early game mana costs are in no way sustainable enough to keep two enemy players out of the lane simultaneously. One of his most exploitable weaknesses is just how difficult it is for him to deal damage to targets who he hasn't hit with a corrosive charge, which usually means that his target will run away while their partner will close in on him and likely win whatever exchange occurs. This was a problem back when he had 1800 lock-on range and it's only become worse since the nerfs.

That said, he also has plenty of counters. Gap closers render his kiting useless and make dodging his enabler skill easy. Sivir's spell shield makes locking on impossible and Soraka can both heal your target to mitigate nearly all of your damage or silence you to halt it completely. Most carries can ignore the 15% outgoing damage reduction from his passive because their steroids easily make up for his complete lack of them.

If you're talking about release Urgot, he may have been able to 1v2 simply because of how unbalanced his scaling was. From levels 1-9 he was an absolute monster due to the extremely high base damage of acid hunter and the fact that corrosive charge had a flat armor debuff that was easily capable of dropping low level players into negative values. Despite this, he was almost never played because he hit a brick wall after that point and became incapable of dealing significant damage throughout the rest of the game, regardless of itemization. It might have worked simply due to the level advantage you had against your opponents, but I doubt it would be a consistently effective strategy even before his nerfs during the stealth rework.


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Jack of All AIDS

Senior Member

10-22-2012

Don't wanna let this thread die.


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Ganelon

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Senior Member

10-22-2012

Agreed. Morello has given us an answer, but I wouldn't say he's talking to us. Even if active discussions about fixing Urgot are too much to ask, it would still be nice to hear the reasoning behind the individual nerfs (Why his range? What alternatives to that nerf were explored, if any?) rather than a simple "We'll make him better in season 3".

Given the nature of these nerfs in the first place, I can't easily accept the idea that Riot's definition of "better" in any way matches my own. If they don't give Urgot even the option to have his old range back, he's effectively going to become a dead champion to me, regardless of what else gets buffed. A definitive answer on what the balancing team is willing to change about my favorite champion is probably too much to expect, but I would certainly appreciate knowing whether there's a point to my efforts here, because I don't enjoy pestering Riot over this any more than they enjoy being pestered (if they even notice or care in the first place).


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goblinaiz

Member

10-23-2012

bump for urgot's fury~


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-23-2012

So wait, the initial nerfs of Urgot. His whole premise is to be a tanky ranged harasser who forces enemies to flee in terror before him. He is literally intended to be a bully character, as his tankiness and extreme range, along with his slows, forced enemies to commit to attacking him instead of trading harass, and his passive made it take longer to kill him in a stand up fight, giving enemies plenty of time to doubt themselves and make the mistake of trying to escape his range and slows. So they nerfed his range, tankiness(his shield at least), and even his damage scaling. That leaves him with NONE of the advantages he was intended to have, namely that he punished passive farmers. Seems to me, if you were concerned about counterplay, a melee AD with a dash to avoid his skill shots and armor pen to combat his tankiness would be the way to go. You would just have to be aggressive and committed to killing him. Restoring Urgot to Glory could turn the current meta on its ear, as he could bully ranged ADCs, but melee carries could be viable as counters to him. I really like the idea about making the lock-on range of his Corrosive Charge scale with level, allowing him to chase squishies out of a teamfight from a safe distance, while keeping his laning phase fair. I actually have a pretty good idea, I think, for a Melee Carry with an ArPen steroid in her kit, which I will be posting in the appropriate forum at a later time, for any interested parties. But maybe the issue with facing a strong Urgot in lane has more to do with laning-phase itemization than champion select and counter-picking? Opinions?


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Ganelon

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Senior Member

10-23-2012

Your assessment seems pretty accurate to me. In the early laning phase Urgot's job is to keep the enemy zoned for as long as possible, and he's very well equipped to farm while doing so. Later on during teamfights, you're still zoning the enemy carry into a position behind their teammates, because they can't afford to just ignore you and their team can't protect them in any way other than creating an area that you can't safely cross. Your effective range covers enough of the fighting that the target won't be safe and able to contribute their own damage at the same time, regardless of who they want to focus.

Itemization that is accessible early enough into the game won't overcome the base damage and effects of an AD caster's skills, which is actually why I was happy about the scaling changes that Urgot had for a week before Riot apologized and reverted them. Making his damage more item-dependent was a step away from the unwinnable laning phase problem that so many people were having with him, but kept his teamfighting at least as good. He still gets countered pretty hard by armor until he can finally afford a Last Whisper, but nobody except some very passive top lane champions is going to seriously consider stacking that right after their boots.

As for counter picking, literally anyone with a good damage mitigation ability, silence/hard CC, or low cooldown gap closer will dance all over Urgot provided that they're in the lane they belong in. He's definitely not lacking in effective solutions to his kit, unique as it is.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-23-2012

What if Urgot's abilities had better AD scaling, but only scaled with Bonus AD? Then his base stats could still be formidable, but his scaling per level being lower to bring him more into line with other late game champs? That way, if you wanted late game damage, you would have to build it? Or are there better ways to provide a place for him in the current meta as a ranged disruptor?


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Scaoki

Junior Member

10-23-2012

Urgot - “Death is the only escape.”
Ranked Solo Queue

Wins 43.33% of Games
Popularity: 0.74% of All Games

Sadly that quote is mostly true for urgot himself these days, as he's the one taking the death.