Udyr: Is it viable to Jungle as Tiger?

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7orus

Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScrumRuck View Post
I was under this impression too, but I think on hit effects are immediately counted into your damage, so it would 1/3 that too.

100 AD
+500 Madreds
= 200 damage on first hit.

I think this is how it works
Since it's splitting the 600 amongst 3 attacks, wouldn't they all hit for 200? The tooltip reads "on hit attacks only trigger off the first attack", it doesn't say anything for the effect being applied only on the first hit. Either way, I'm testing it in a practice game, I'll edit with results.

EDIT: Tried it out, and although counter-intuitive, it works exactly as stated before. The +500 from Madred's Razors gets split and only counted for in the first attack. However, Bloodrazor works fine, and my guess is all the other on hit items do as well (I only tested malady and wit's end), with the possible exception of Atma's Impaler.


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niskax

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Recruiter

08-23-2010

Only the first swing in tiger applies on hit effects, so it doesn't triple them-- it just makes them the same as hitting in any other stance. There was a bug with Malady at some point, but I believe it has been fixed.


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Covenant

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7orus View Post
Since it's splitting the 600 amongst 3 attacks, wouldn't they all hit for 200? The tooltip reads "on hit attacks only trigger off the first attack", it doesn't say anything for the effect being applied only on the first hit. Either way, I'm testing it in a practice game, I'll edit with results.
Nope.

When you have Razor and it procs you'll see your normal damage go from like 53 a hit to 183 or so. But since only the first hit procs, you don't get the added benefit.

They were sloppy when making Udyr and this needs to be fixed. Nobody else has so many broken moves. Turtle gives no crits by design, but tiger messes up your procs, and flat damage reduction makes it extra weak.

Either make it so you can proc properly on your hit, or remove the three hits.

Each hit could also use a boost. I like tiger for the damage output but the passive is a real mixed bag.


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jonnychan

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7orus View Post
Since it's splitting the 600 amongst 3 attacks, wouldn't they all hit for 200? The tooltip reads "on hit attacks only trigger off the first attack", it doesn't say anything for the effect being applied only on the first hit. Either way, I'm testing it in a practice game, I'll edit with results.

EDIT: Tried it out, and although counter-intuitive, it works exactly as stated before. The +500 from Madred's Razors gets split and only counted for in the first attack. However, Bloodrazor works fine, and my guess is all the other on hit items do as well (I only tested malady and wit's end), with the possible exception of Atma's Impaler.
Did you really get around +500 damage from Madred's in the game or are you just giving us an example of how it works? Opponent has to have 12500 healh to be able to hit +500 from Madred's before MR.


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hollywoodAnimal

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnychan View Post
Did you really get around +500 damage from Madred's in the game or are you just giving us an example of how it works? Opponent has to have 12500 healh to be able to hit +500 from Madred's before MR.
He was speaking of Madred's Razor, not Bloodrazor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
Nope.

When you have Razor and it procs you'll see your normal damage go from like 53 a hit to 183 or so. But since only the first hit procs, you don't get the added benefit.

They were sloppy when making Udyr and this needs to be fixed. Nobody else has so many broken moves. Turtle gives no crits by design, but tiger messes up your procs, and flat damage reduction makes it extra weak.

Either make it so you can proc properly on your hit, or remove the three hits.

Each hit could also use a boost. I like tiger for the damage output but the passive is a real mixed bag.
The damage from Madred's Razor is seperate from the normal attack so this means that on Udyr's Tiger the first hit will (possibly) proc the 500 damage, and you will see other lesser numbers from the triple strike (the other two strikes will not be allowed to proc).

At least, this is what I understood from reading several other threads.

Hope it helps.


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Covenant

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywoodAnimal View Post
The damage from Madred's Razor is seperate from the normal attack so this means that on Udyr's Tiger the first hit will (possibly) proc the 500 damage, and you will see other lesser numbers from the triple strike (the other two strikes will not be allowed to proc).

At least, this is what I understood from reading several other threads.

Hope it helps.
If that's the case then it should be easy enough to let it proc on all three, or something. I find it absurd that one of the best junglers in the game can't use his DPS stance effectively to DPS because they decided to ruin the damage calculation.


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Patyrn

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
If that's the case then it should be easy enough to let it proc on all three, or something. I find it absurd that one of the best junglers in the game can't use his DPS stance effectively to DPS because they decided to ruin the damage calculation.
I'm not sure you understand how it works. Tiger procs items faster than any other stance due to the passive attack speed boost. Ignore the triple attack as it is meaningless except vs flat damage reduction against which it is outright detrimental.


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Covenant

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patyrn View Post
I'm not sure you understand how it works. Tiger procs items faster than any other stance due to the passive attack speed boost. Ignore the triple attack as it is meaningless except vs flat damage reduction against which it is outright detrimental.
It procs them faster but it's doing a third as much. You'd need to be rocking a 3x attack speed modifier for 1/3rd damage modifier on your procs to matter. So the 'actual' damage output is diminished because the procs happen 170 percent as often for 33 percent of the damage. That's bad.

And it's just sloppy. For crits, all attacks are viable. For attack damage scaling, all attacks are viable. For a few on-hit items? Useless. Absolutely useless.

And that unfairly shrinks his build possibilities. Sheen becomes garbage, the Razor is nearly useless, and I don't even know if the sub-hits count for lifestealing from lifesteal items. We know the big hit doesn't.

Plus, it diminishes the value of other attack speed items. If it was a choice between 3x mini-hits and +70 percent attack speed and +70 percent attack damage and one hit... I'd take the one hit. Same total damage, right? But in way, way better clumps.


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imhuge

Senior Member

08-23-2010

Tiger Stance only reduces physical damage by 1/3

crits, Madred Razor/Wriggle's, Sheen/Trinity/Lich Bane, all reduced
Malady, Wit's End, Bloodrazor, Sword of the Divine, not reduced

Tiger's active is really weak without AD and freezes you for a very small moment when you get the hit
another caveat is that the active does magic damage, which is either good or terrible
in lane, the stance is really good for last hits, though sometimes it works against you


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