One Tier List to rule them all

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Sauron

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Acid Hunter neither lifesteals nor crits. It also doesn't increment Sanguine Blade's passive boost though, so honestly I don't like it very much either because SB is nowhere near worth its price if you don't keep its stacks up. While Urgot can be quite tanky and incidentally autoattack people who come close enough to hit, it's probably bad policy to actively get in the face of someone like Jax or Wukong to do it and you'll lose your stacks if you're lock-on shooting from long range. Honestly if you want lifesteal on him that bad, you might as well build a Gunblade. >_> You might think that's ridiculous but spell vamp is insanely broken on him and hey, the AP doesn't go to complete waste since his shield does have a rather high ratio. It still has a modest amount of AD and lifesteal. If that's too outlandish for you, Bilgewater Cutlass is better than EC as a mid-tier lifesteal option if nothing else or hell, just sit on Vamp all game and ignore upgrading it unless the game goes long enough for a full six-item build.
Trinity is incredibly effective on Urgot, actually, its scary how effective it is. High base damage with constant procs, armor reduction, crit chance to stack with EC/Atma's, and the shield+ult. Urgot is one of the toughest champions to fight in melee range once the initial gap closer + CC is burned, especially because his E is guaranteed at that range and armor reduction makes flat armor penetration even more effective.

Yeah, Jax is going to win if the entire fight is melee range, and Wukong will sometimes win midgame due to his ult, and Urgot will lose if he misses his E (such as using it during the opponent's gap closer), but ultimately I haven't found a stronger build for Urgot in bot lane than the setup I listed. Teargot is still viable against stalematers though.

The reason why I like EC so much is that its very effective against similar builds, provides good stats, and is cheap enough that it fits in with the expensive Trinity/Ghostblade/Atma's build and stays in it for the typical game length. It is not too unusual to see me running around with 2-3 ECs against opponents that aren't CC heavy. If the game does last unusually long an EC can be traded in for a net loss of 400 gold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Lulu tags someone with E and then hits her Q. She deals 540 damage, less the target's MR plus whatever piddly AP you have building tanky CDR. Her spells are now on a 10-second and 7-second cooldown, less your CDR (up to 40%).

This is a simple fact. To deny it is to be wrong. Once you get to the skill level of not constantly whiffing Glitterlance (which is pretty low), being a better player doesn't make her deal more than 540 damage + AP - MR. This is slightly more damage than what Janna will do (assuming you don't routinely land full-charge tornadoes) but it's still near bottom of the barrel amongst AP casters as a whole.

If you want to argue that their relative damage output matters, sure, go ahead. I simply disagree. Neither Janna nor Lulu are designed to be a primary damage dealer and while Lulu might do more, I don't think the distinction between "garbage" and "garbage +1" is important. Same thing on those other matters: their different methods of CC, Wild Growth vs. Tailwind, what have you. If this is where Lulu gets the edge in your (and the majority's) opinion, then we can simply agree to disagree.

What you can't do is argue that Lulu is better because she deals "obscene damage." Literally. It is just objectively true that Lulu deals poor damage. There's no argument to make. She has only two damaging spells. Their base damages and cooldowns are average at best (being generous). And were you to build her for damage, which is generally not the case, her scaling is horrible. She kites great, she pokes well, she has utility coming out of her ass... but she's not scoring sick frags left and right.
I don't particularly feel like arguing how support plays out and why that puts Lulu's damage ahead. Let's just agree to disagree and if one of the local Lulu/Janna players (zimike/inFe eD/Painkillar or someone) want to chime in, they can.


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Sauron

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekoyim View Post
Hey Sauron,

So I decided to play a bit more dominion after taking a long break from it and while browsing through this thread, I found that apparently AP Teemo is a fairly strong pick?

Any advice/suggestions on how to build items/runes/masteries and general tips and tricks with AP Teemo? Also, if I'm playing soloQ (my dominion elo is 1878 as of today, not great but not horrible at least), am I better off going pure ap teemo or some mix of ap/as teemo?

Thanks!
ZaberZ is the Teemo player on our competitive team, and he typically runs standard caster runes but with movespeed quints and 21-1-8 masteries.

Teemo can be built in a lot of different ways but the successful ones I see in tournaments are typically stacking flat mpen, rushing Sweeper, picking up Nashors and eventually getting an Abyssal. The 6th item is situational, but the game is usually over before it. Either AP or AP/AS will work; pure AP is chosen in high Elo because it boosts the standard team coordination and shrooms are often used as escape routes.

AP Teemo is not a fighter, and in team fights he pretty much just blinds a DPS and runs away. If he's not being focused (rare for Teemo) then he can stay to spread poison but otherwise his primary duty is to shroom brush and areas around capture points that team fights are likely to happen on, and if he's really not being focused he can plant shrooms underneath people in team fights.

While Teemo does make the jungle a hell for enemies, the same thing applies to him as any other caster: if caught out of position when planting these shrooms he will get bursted pretty quickly. Be mindful of where enemies are likely to be when shrooming the enemy's side of the jungle. Also, many people will begin to avoid brush after a while for fear of hitting shrooms, so if you start to place your shrooms against walls or around brush you can hit even more people lategame.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
stuff
Lulu's damage, when properly built as a support, is substantially higher than Janna's. Glitterlance is an instant AOE line skillshot, unlike tornado which is probably the easiest skillshot in the entire game to dodge if you're fully charging it. Using Lulu's E on top of that makes Glitterlance even more absurd. More importantly, Lulu can afford to max her main DPS spell first on Dominion, while Janna will want higher ranks of w/e for the utility. This is ignoring the fact that Lulu had, until Durrius was released, probably the most damaging passive in the game.

Unless the entire enemy team is chilling and waiting to get hit in the face with a fully charged tornado, Janna's damage is not in the same league's as Lulu. When you add in the fact that Lulu offers superior single target CC, and arguably equal AOE CC, Janna simply falls flat in comparison, in every relevant area as a support.


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Renegade Talon

Senior Member

06-04-2012

I noticed you have kayle in a good spot but no explanation about her. What's the basic summary of kayle?


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Insanus

Member

06-04-2012

Help Sauron, great Dominion Sage,
I'm having trouble with the little, evil mage,
in the bot lane you listed him tier 2,
but the only one that could play him that well is you.

Losing bot due to iincessant ganking,
my teammates erupt with a verbal spanking,
I get harassed and I have to portal,
I can't take much damage, I'm just a yordle.

Is it my build? is it my play?
I need some advice so I can be good one day,
I'll patiently wait for your opinion,
Maybe you could take him in the next Dominate Dominion?

Basically, how do you play Veigar bot? It seems like you have to level dark matter to be able to clear creeps, but then it makes it difficult to harass if you are using it to clear creeps. Veigar has good burst but you have to set it up by using event horizon. If you get caught with event horizon on cooldown, you are dead. Also, Veigar seems easily counterable. If they switch to AD with a gap closer, you are dead. I'm not a good player as In Feed as pointed out so this may be my problem.

Also, thank you for sharing your knowledge and responding to posts (even the ones that are just looking to start a fight). I think it would be cool if you could just show me by taking him in the dom dom tourney on one of the earlier matchups. Thanks!


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Sauron

Senior Member

06-04-2012

You don't necessarily have to level W first, but it will certainly help against a pusher like Singed. Its very important to level Q as it gives a much needed cooldown reduction. Veigar has a lot of trading power once the first few levels pass but he can be countered fairly hard. He's susceptible to ganks but he's also good at setting up ganks for his own allies when they come bot. If they swap in a counter, you'll need to swap out as well unless you're content with just stopping minion waves and stalemating the lane.

Veigar plays a lot like Ryze in bottom lane against most champs, where you usually just Q minions and sometimes use W, and then Q->E->W->Q if the enemy tries to trade with you. Keeping W and E off cooldown can allow you to zone weaker opponents away from the minions, and its really his trading distance that makes his game.

His build really depends on the opponent which can't always be known, but I prefer to go CDR boots and rush Void Staff over building any flat mpen. Then, whether I cap CDR by going FH or Deathfire is up to whether or not I have to swap.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanus View Post
Help Sauron, great Dominion Sage,
I'm having trouble with the little, evil mage,
in the bot lane you listed him tier 2,
but the only one that could play him that well is you.

Losing bot due to iincessant ganking,
my teammates erupt with a verbal spanking,
I get harassed and I have to portal,
I can't take much damage, I'm just a yordle.

Is it my build? is it my play?
I need some advice so I can be good one day,
I'll patiently wait for your opinion,
Maybe you could take him in the next Dominate Dominion?
!
Oh my god

that is absolutely adorable

i want to give you a medal for writing this


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ssmonkey

Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanus View Post
Help Sauron, great Dominion Sage,
I'm having trouble with the little, evil mage,
in the bot lane you listed him tier 2,
but the only one that could play him that well is you.

Losing bot due to iincessant ganking,
my teammates erupt with a verbal spanking,
I get harassed and I have to portal,
I can't take much damage, I'm just a yordle.

Is it my build? is it my play?
I need some advice so I can be good one day,
I'll patiently wait for your opinion,
Maybe you could take him in the next Dominate Dominion?
You make me want to play Veigar!


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Insanus

Member

06-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by inFe eD View Post
Oh my god

that is absolutely adorable

i want to give you a medal for writing this
Adorable is my middle name buddy.

Thank you Sauron for the reply. I will conitue to work on this. It seems like Veigar is too counterable to be tier 2 to me but he does counter many of the APs that frequent the bot lane which is why I assume he made it on your tier 2. Im not sure i agree on the tier 2 ranking but i dont think its worh arguing over a one tier move when you have taken the time to rate every champ in both top amd bot lanes. Also im probably wrong. Ha. Thanks again!


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Yes Maam Kablam

Member

06-06-2012

Why the extremely low placement for Udyr in top lane? He has good mobility, strong single-target damage, and a decent chunk of tankiness. He does sport a significant weakness to strong kiters, but that alone doesn't seem like it would merit a tier 5 placement.