Change Darius ult to deal physical damage.

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THE BUGGSHASH

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Thank you for making Darius, he is a very fun Champ. And his kit "Makes sense" or rather it has a great synergy, the more stacks the enemy has, the more damage they take and his ult is very satisfying.


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KhaelvahN

Junior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Talon could have done the same, but you an counter talons dmg with some Armor (Wriggles, GA) even as an AD carry.
At the same time Talon needs to go all in and is super squishy. 1 CC and he is dead.

Darius is now a bruiser like Garen, Irelia or Olaf.
All 3 of them would have probably killed the AD carry with equal stats (Except for garen probably). But the AD carry would have countered their dmg a bit. And all 3 of them would have needed 5-6 sec or even longer to kill the enemy.

it shows that Darius has the burst of an Assassin through the whole game. From lvl 1 to 18, but his dmg is less likely to fail (no skill needed to sue W, or R. Q needs a bit of skill and E needs a tiny bit of timing), and he has more sticky power than most Assassins (except for Akali and probably Ahri).
And if he fails too use E, he can normally run away. If an assassin goes in, they normally need to use flash to get out. And if they have stealth (Akali, Talon) wards and oracle can counter it or positioning well would also help).

People say Darius is so risky. He may be in the lane early on when farming, but his engage is like Blitz engage, one of the safest in the game, cause if it fails you only used a CD.
Fail with other Assassins or Leona or Alistar and you will die alone or bait your team into the fight.

People say he is bad here and there, and he has his weaknesses.
But they never mention all the great advantages he has (95% safe hook that can't really miss compared to skill shots; Brusier with the burst of an assassin and that every around 3-4 sec again if he doesn't die; a decent amount of utility; no real items or stats to counter him, only skill and champs).


You are looking at this the wrong way. You are saying he has the damage of an assassin throughout the entire game. Rubbish. People build him like a hyper carry. It works but that is not the intention behind his creation. Building him that way gives him the same or similar weaknesses other assassin classes have.
From the way you cry about differences you expect all champs to be equal. So if hes built an assassin it requires a bit of teamplay to kill him(not really) so what. The same is required to kill many other champs or they will snowball to victory. akali and shaco are 2 that come to mind. They are far more slippery then a Darius and twice as hard to kill once they've killed a few of your mates.


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Krylok

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Talon could have done the same, but you an counter talons dmg with some Armor (Wriggles, GA) even as an AD carry.
At the same time Talon needs to go all in and is super squishy. 1 CC and he is dead.

Darius is now a bruiser like Garen, Irelia or Olaf.
All 3 of them would have probably killed the AD carry with equal stats (Except for garen probably). But the AD carry would have countered their dmg a bit. And all 3 of them would have needed 5-6 sec or even longer to kill the enemy.

it shows that Darius has the burst of an Assassin through the whole game. From lvl 1 to 18, but his dmg is less likely to fail (no skill needed to sue W, or R. Q needs a bit of skill and E needs a tiny bit of timing), and he has more sticky power than most Assassins (except for Akali and probably Ahri).
And if he fails too use E, he can normally run away. If an assassin goes in, they normally need to use flash to get out. And if they have stealth (Akali, Talon) wards and oracle can counter it or positioning well would also help).

People say Darius is so risky. He may be in the lane early on when farming, but his engage is like Blitz engage, one of the safest in the game, cause if it fails you only used a CD.
Fail with other Assassins or Leona or Alistar and you will die alone or bait your team into the fight.

People say he is bad here and there, and he has his weaknesses.
But they never mention all the great advantages he has (95% safe hook that can't really miss compared to skill shots; Brusier with the burst of an assassin and that every around 3-4 sec again if he doesn't die; a decent amount of utility; no real items or stats to counter him, only skill and champs).
His stats aren't actually up to bruiser standards. I saw a friend playing Irelia who had just about 300 less hp with a frozen mallet and a warmogs than a Darius who had 2 warmogs and a phage. 0 hp runes. Plus, his hook is actually incredibly easy to dodge, unless you're halfway in the AoE, because there's a bit of delay when he casts it. Not much, but enough to actually make a difference, from what I've seen of him. If he doesn't catch you, then he's also stuck in position for about an extra .5 seconds. And there's also the fact that it's range isn't that high. If you run around the corner of a wall right when he casts, you won't get caught by it. It's more for making sure that enemy champs don't escape, rather than to grab you for a team gank, unlike Blitzcrank's grab.

And like certainlyt said, if you want to beef up his damage, then you'll have to sacrifice tank stats for it, to a certain extent at least. And vice versa. Best thing you can do against him is make sure you shut him down early game, and take him out first in teamfights. It really isn't that hard to deal with him.


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KhaelvahN

Junior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IUDream View Post
Can you explain to me why his grab is the same range as many AD carries with the exception of Caitlyn, Kog' Maw, and Tristana?
Darius having that much of a range allows him to easily grab the enemy AD carry and use his combo to 100-0 that AD carry. I'm not sure about you, but I don't know any champion that can full to none an AD carry, and I play Irelia, a tanky assassin.
Who needs Irelia and Lee Sin if Darius can easily come in, blow his combo, and still do tons of damage on other players because of his passive?
Maybe a little tweak on his grab could change this. Instead of 550, maybe 500 or 450, allowing AD carries to kite him.
Maybe because they have skills other than auto attack?

Guess youve never played against leblanc or akali or veigar or any other champ with a high burst combo


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JazzGator

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Yes, Darius has good base stats and great ratios. I fail to see what is wrong with that. Darius's weaknesses are a lack of sustain and mobility (and, as a toplane/jungler, the fact that he uses mana). In exchange, he gets some pretty amazing strengths. I think that is a good thing and has lead to a champ unlike any we've seen before.
iono hes kinda like garen so i dont think hes that unique


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Xyltin

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylok View Post
His stats aren't actually up to bruiser standards. I saw a friend playing Irelia who had just about 300 less hp with a frozen mallet and a warmogs than a Darius who had 2 warmogs and a phage. 0 hp runes. Plus, his hook is actually incredibly easy to dodge, unless you're halfway in the AoE, because there's a bit of delay when he casts it. Not much, but enough to actually make a difference, from what I've seen of him. If he doesn't catch you, then he's also stuck in position for about an extra .5 seconds. And there's also the fact that it's range isn't that high. If you run around the corner of a wall right when he casts, you won't get caught by it. It's more for making sure that enemy champs don't escape, rather than to grab you for a team gank, unlike Blitzcrank's grab.

And like certainlyt said, if you want to beef up his damage, then you'll have to sacrifice tank stats for it, to a certain extent at least. And vice versa. Best thing you can do against him is make sure you shut him down early game, and take him out first in teamfights. It really isn't that hard to deal with him.
To his base stats and other Bruisers:
Irelia, Riven and Jarvan (picked 2 more popular ones and 2 that can possibly jungle)

Irelia:
Health 456 (+90)
Health regen. 7.5 (+0.65)
Attack damage 56 (+3.3)
Armor 15 (+3.75)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)

Riven:
Health 414 (+86)
Health regen. 10.4 (+0.9)
Attack damage 54 (+2.75)
Attack speed 0.625 (+3.5%)
Armor 15 (+3.1)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)

Jarvan:
Health 420 (+90)
Health regen. 7.0 (+0.7)
Attack damage 50 (+3.4)
Armor 14 (+3)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)

Darius:
Health 426 (+93)
Health regen. 8.25 (+0.95)
Attack damage 50 (+3.5)
Armor 20 (+3.5)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)

You see that he can hold up to them in base stats easily. There are some with better HP like Garen or Jax, but they have other disadvantages.
He even has one of the highest Armor value especially early game.

His hook has a 550 range and only around 0.4-0.5 sec delay. So if you are not prepared that he uses it, you have 0 chances to avoid it. When you know it and you have the perfect timing, you can avoid it and he will only hook you over a range of 400.
But normally you can't see the perfect timing and you have to react, so you won't be able to avoid it over a range of around 450-500. At 500-550 you should be able to avoid it if you play concentrated.

And he doesn't get stuck for another 0.5 sec. The whole stuck thing is 0.5 sec, but that is with the 0.4-0.5 sec cast animation (i think it was actually 0.35 initial and 0.15 for the finishing move, but that would mean an ever lower chance to avoid it).
If he aims his hook right, he can hook you over walls and also around edges.

For tank stats: Randuins + MoM + BT
=> Good HP, great Armor and MR + a lot of dmg.


And if you read some of my posts in here, i always said that he is not really OP, but like the old Riven (Q weak and W strong), some of his skills are while the others are too weak.
And what i want to see is an actual champ that can get balanced from low to high elo and has a good skill cap and not a Garen or Xin 2.o that stomps low Elo games and gets nerfed only cause of that even when he is balanced higher up.


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FistOf7Dragons

Senior Member

05-26-2012

nerf the passive and the remove his ults reset ability.


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Sporadic P0tato

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Whoah, this thread got really long, really fast. I'll reply as best I can.


Garenís ult is a fundamentally different ability. His presence in a team fight is much more diffuse Ė he can ult *anyone* that gets low on health. Enemies that had to disengage at 10% health now have to disengage at 25% health with Garen around and his ult up. Dariusí ult is only at its peak efficiency on the target he chooses to focus. Itís possible that this is a more valuable ability, but one is not straight up superior to the other in my mind.

I don't think you're looking at this from a gameplay perspective. Yes, what you're saying makes sense here while we read it on the forums, but not so much when applied to the actual game. I say this because you make it sound as if all the champions in a fight are all being whacked around, until they have to disengage because Garen is around and can kill anyone, and Darius does not have that ability because he can only do this to one person he's focusing at a time. Fights almost NEVER occur this way (or are not supposed to occur this way). Teams pick a character or two to focus, and kill that character. Garen is simply going to be outclassed (in regards to his ult) in every single way, because in reality they both would be looking to ult the same person, the same person they and their team has been focusing. The difference, however, is Garen does have to get mathy, moreso than almost any other skill in the game (which you said is no fun and is why Darius is true damage), and he can only use his once, so he has to carefully mitigate whether his attack is going to be necessary to kill something so they don't get away, or simply kill steal. Darius on the other hand can merrily kill the focus target at whatever health, switch to the next squishiest carry (as we are ALL SUPPOSED TO DO IN A TEAMFIGHT), do it again, rinse repeat.

If you Riot guys are playing games where everyone in a team fight is running around in team fights at 25 percent health, I think you need to get some better playtesters or a lot more practice in, lol....


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Tripc0de

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Senior Member

05-26-2012

bump


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9Point

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Im just going to repost this as i feel it still pertains to the discussion, as well as adding more thoughts on Darius other then omg true dmg ult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Sure. His harass is "massive" if he Q tips you almost every time. Otherwise, he is a weaker gangplank when it comes to harassment. We balanced this around a few factors.

First, counterplay -- For example, if you engage on Darius with a move block, you can often deny him the window to Q from the proper distance. If you juke backwards, you can sometimes bait a complete miss on the ability.
Second, sustain -- Champions with the ability to regain health will naturally wear Darius down, provided they execute their spell combos proficiently;
Third, pushing -- Darius has relatively little control over his lane. If he Q harasses, he often ends up pushing the wave to the enemy tower. Pushing isn't an inherent weakness, a lack of control over whether you push while harassing definitely is a weakness (Renekton has this problem as well). This is especially pronounced because Darius is vulnerable to ganks and because his bleed damage triggers tower aggro, making him a bad tower diver.

I see the bleed not so much as an additional source of damage as deferred ability/AA damage. If he didn't have the bleed, we would have just bumped the ratios on his other damaging abilities. Riven is similar in this regard. Both of them have extra AD scaling on their autoattacks in order to incentivze a balance between ability and AA usage.
how do you counter play and zone him if he inherently in doing his own skills easily pushes the lane.
Sounds like even in zonning he has a great way to farm and harass.

Just to reiterate...
If someone has an ability to easily farm, then zonning is not an inherent flaw.
Its like saying just zone old Sivir. Just because she has a bouncing auto attack and can easily farm when pushed back to her tower doesn't mean she cant be zonned.

And to resort to "2v1" is his weakness is not an excuse.
Your entire argument bases of player ability and in my opinion undermine the champions own overwhelming strengths. Which is funny, as you have already confirmed his absurd Ad ratios and base defensive stats. (Which have nothing to do with survivability i guess)
You can not give "be a better player" as a weakness

And you fail to mention Riven does have a deferred AA/Skill Darius doesn't not.
Last i checked Riven's passive has no effect on any of her skills.
Darius has double dipping Ad stats.
every 1 point of AD is worth 1.4 Ad. that is not deferred. that increasing gains.

I don't even get how you can even compare CC stuns as stopping him.
What Pantheons 600 range 1 second stun would upset the balance of...?
the fact that you designed a champion who steamrolls not just in itemization, and skills, but also simple auto attacks. You do understand with how you designed his passive to work with his auto attacks.
At lvl 1 with base attack dmg 50 after five attacks he is applying a dot a of greater dmg then his auto attacks (that being 60)
So to make clear. Daruis can pump damage greater then this AA by AA. But you can beat out his harass and engagement by stunning him and having move speed greater then 550. So say pantheon stuns you to get away. Pantheon with boots and phantoms does not have 550 move speed. So after 1 second of stun he is still in Darius's threat range.

Oh. Did i say pantheon. I meant also Riven.
riven has a dash of 325.... So she cant dash away.
But wait! Riven has a stun... Of .75 seconds but not 550 move speed.
But wait again! she could use the knock back of her Q (225 knockback) and dash away!
... Oh wait that is a total of 550 move speed away which is still in threat.
BUT WAIT ONE LAST TIME. Should could stun him for .75 seconds dash away and use her Q to run further.
So.... she cant poke, since she need all 3 of her skill to escape.

Did i say Riven.... I meant Sion duh.
He has a 1.5 second stun at a range.... Equal to Darius's pull...
But its single click so i could shield in, deal dmg. Stun and run.
But with a base move speed of only 320 having 1.5 seconds of full running would only put you 480 units away. Which is in range.

In conclusion, a champion who has a huge burst in just auto attacks is not really countered by (melee) champion's stuns. As most either have to be within his threat range, which is clearly greater or have to forgo engagements at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Darius can be deceptive. His attacks are building up effective damage on you. If you are at 75% but have used all your cooldowns and plan on autoattacking him for 25% of his life total, you very well might be dead and just not know it.
Fair and balanced.
That is his problem

Darius commits the 2 biggest issues that even Morello has said to be problems.

1) scaling true damage.
True damage in itself is just hard to balance. It has nothing to do with Op or UP. Its just hard to balance a damage source that can not be reduced. There is only one other champion with a scaled true damage move and that's Cho'Gath. im not saying Cho's feast is OP, but i AM saying there is a reason Cho's ult has an incredibly low range. On a further note, Darius's ult is double scaling.
Meaning,
not only does his ult scale with ad (like Cho's ult with Ap) but it scales per tick of his passive.
Darius has the highest true damage scaling and theoretical output you can have with a range four times the range of Cho'Goths. If you don't think that is problematic then well i don't know what to tell you.

2) double-dipping stats. For those who don't know this is where 1 point in one stat increases another stat by x amount. Kayle's old passive is a clear example. Ad to Ap, and Ap to Ad. So how does Darius do this? He only has Ad ratios...
Well because of how his passive works
(That being a .4 ad scaling magic that also scales on hit dot that procs on attacks and skills)
For every 1 point of ad he is getting 1.4 ad out of it. Since every move (including his 0 dmg pull) applies his passive, and every auto attack applies it, every move and auto attack is also doing additional damage.

To put more clearly, Darius's passive is:
For every 1 point of Ad you have increase the damage of all auto attacks and skills by .4 ad + (base damage dot * number of dots applied)

For a 3rd reason and one i am pretty sure Morello has not said...
Darius has all ad ratios. And yet 3 different and effective damage sources.
This is clearly an issue in failure to show properer and clear optimization.
If for every point of ad he has, his physical, magic, and true damage are increased what do you by to mitigate him? It is as simple a question as that.
If everything he does scales. (See double-dipping for evidence) then what do you get to counter a champion whos ouput comprises of physical, magic, and true damage (all scaling off ad)

Lastly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Yes, Darius has good base stats and great ratios. I fail to see what is wrong with that. Darius's weaknesses are a lack of sustain and mobility (and, as a toplane/jungler, the fact that he uses mana). In exchange, he gets some pretty amazing strengths. I think that is a good thing and has lead to a champ unlike any we've seen before.
He has incredibly high base stats.
Highest starting armor in the game in fact.
Modest base hp (higher then Riven/Ren lower than Udyr/SHy)
But in top 15 for highest base Health at 18 ( as 15 with 2100)
Even his Base AD ratio is in top 30 (he is 27 with 113) Higher then kong/ire/fiora/urgot/tyrn

Also. For every weakness he has (and he does have them) he has a built in buffer.
Passive dmg buff (sorry i consider stacking ad "bleed" on hit effect a dmg buff) with move speed that also procs on skills. So yes, he is melee and has slow move speed but a move speed buff at a maximum 550 range (his pull) or 425 (his spin)

For context Tyrn's mocking shout is 400 range and his spin is 660 range

And as for mana costs. at 18 with no runes or mastiers he has 875 mana.
His mana costs are not that high... (at 18)
q: 40 mana
w: 50 mana
e: 45 mana
r: 100 mana
So saying he "easily" gets penta with constant ults that leaves him with 375 mana.
Using each move once (q,w,e) takes 135 mana.
He can use all moves twice, hit ult 5 times and still have 105 man left. which is enough for any two other moves.

This is all of course without calculating in mana regen. which is low for him. (it being a flat 6)

With his ult, its not that its OMG TRUE DMG SO MUCH OP OP OP.
Its that even with a poor early game he can quickly come back.
A single team fight can give him a quick kill maybe two if lucky and thats really all he needs to undue 15 minutes of good counter play.

Lastly, his ratios are not bad at all. .4 on a passive and .7 on everything else is nothing to scoff at. (1.5 if you count full charged ult) And it wouldnt be so bad but his base damage on his moves isnt exactly low either.

Compare his passive to Rivens. (only passive i can think of with ad scaling)
Rivens:
Riven's abilities charge her blade, causing her to do 5 / 7 / 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 (+0.5 per bonus attack damage) bonus physical damage on her next autoattack. Riven can store up to 3 charges, and will only expend one at a time.
Darius:
Darius' basic attacks and damaging abilities cause enemies to bleed for 12 / 15 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 27 / 30 / 33 / 36 (+0.4 per bonus attack damage) magic damage over 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times. Darius gains 5% movement speed for each bleeding enemy champion.

Now if your going to say well there different play style blah blah blah.
OK. Fine.
But this is without counting his on hit effect that is % damage and starts at 120% extra damage.

And I have seen champions like this before. But they where nerfed shortly after.
Darius has a good theory put behind him, and runs fine. He has cool mechanics and animations but with his ratios and stats are to high.
And i do not believe that it takes very much to see that.