Change Darius ult to deal physical damage.

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Mrs Urgot

Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkestPhoenix View Post
I could probably say this about most True Damage champions that are considered "broken" because the only counter to true damage is more HP... which is kind of pointless considering he just has to watch your health and True Damage to victory.
Except Vayne! Her true damage scales WITH your hp!


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Hey CertainlyT, I have never seen you before, but it is awesome that you are taking the time to communicate with the forum about your champ! Thanks man!


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Themadmoomoo

Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikillutwice View Post
I greatly disagree with this spin pull one auto and ult will do 1500 damage at level 11 instantly killing any ranged ad or mage
why is your top lane getting to mid or bot without an mia? if youve lost your lane so bad by lvl 11 he can roam without MIAs then yuor doing something wrong


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Mrs Urgot

Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
We made Darius's ult true damage for a two primary reasons:
First, we wanted the Darius player to have some certainty over whether his ultimate would land a killing blow. Physical damage mitigation varies widely across champions and builds. It was extremely "mathy" to have to calculate what health was needed to score a kill.

Second, we wanted to make sure Darius's ult did not kill squishy ranged ADs and mages from full with low bleed stacks. When the ult was physical, the damage had to be so high to make it feel good against, say Renekton, that it was abusive versus Caitlyn. Notice that in the example you gave, Darius's lvl 3 Noxian Guillotine at max stacks with 60 bonus AD would be doing something like 300 physical damage to a lvl 18 Renekton with a Randuins and an Aegis.
And why should it NOT feel worse? Look at pretty much every mage in the game. Their whole burst feels awful against someone with 200+ MR and 2.5k HP. Building armour SHOULD make his ult feel worse, just like building MR or a Hexdrinker makes every caster feel worse.

Also, a 700+ true damage nuke does WAY more against a squishy AD or mage as opposed to a Renekton with a Mallet/Randuins.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zmasta2 View Post
he does have no sustain because he has to spend 450 gold to gain that sustain while champions like irelia for example have sustain built into their kit which darius does not.
true damage is countered by hp and shields
True dmg has no real counter. HP counters magical dmg, physical dmg and every kind of dmg. The worst thing HP does is coutnering true dmg, cause HP scales well with Armor and MR, what makes it even better against physical and magical dmg.
=> HP is ok against true dmg, but that is the worst thing HP does. It coutners every other dmg source better. The same with shields.

The only reason why you normally say HP is a counter is cause other true dmg sources scale bad, have a long CD or no scaling (Cho, and Olaf mainly). Vayne ignores the max HP cause hers is a % value and she need 3 hits on one target all the time.

Darius true dmg scales very well with AD. It has a CD reset and it has no limitation in terms of range or any hits (he can apply 3 stacks on a target in 1 sec, 4 stacks in 2 sec, 5 stacks in 3 sec but he has his pull and slow to achieve that easily).

That makes his true dmg very crappy in terms of design and is exactly what Morello always stated as toxic in the game.

Darius has an insane amount of burst (cause his abilities and his apply his passive and let the first tick come instantly). But his DPS is also great (passive).
If Darius uses Q + AA + W in 1.5 sec, his passive will tick 3 times till then (once after every hit and the dmg ramps up with every hit).

Sure, hew has no sustain. But so does GP, Riven, Malphite, Panth, Swain (his ult, but till then everybody can buy sustain. Now early game sustain matters), Kennen, ....

there are a lot of champs without sustain. None of them needed a scaling CD resetting high true dmg ult. And to say it out loud again: His ult is the highest single target burst ability in the game.
Lux and Xerath can reach 370/375 dmg but it is magical. And even with the ratios they wont reach the dmg of Darius, a bruiser who can deal around 1400-1800 dmg late game in 2.5 sec (cause of 32.5% ArPen, magical dmg and true dmg, this is also hard to counter). That is the burst speed of an Assassin but he is harder to counter than they are.
Sure he is a melee champ without an engage into the enemy, but he has a hook and is a bruiser. He doesn't need to build too much dmg. Take a CC team with him. Morgana, Ahri or Kennen mid, Darius top or in the jungle. Ashe and Leona bot (should get tested).


TL;DR:
HP counters flat true dmg (Olaf, none AP cho and Irelia a little bit), but not one that scales with AD. And then at the same time that champ scales only with defensive item and AD and his magical, physical and true dmg scales with AD. And on top of that he has 25% ArPen.

Why does Darius wins hard or loses hard?
Cause there is no counter with items that makes much sense to build against him.
Armor: 32.5% ArPen later without items
MR: his magic dmg is decent (around 20% of his dmg), so it makes no sense to counter that dmg, but it is still there.
Scaling true dmg: HP is ok against him (like HP is ok against every enemy). But compared to other champs, your HP is worth less cause it doesn't scale against true dmg with other stats.


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NeoLlama

Senior Member

05-26-2012

I just want to point out that many champ releases are heralded as fine and working as intended by riot until 4 weeks later when they get nerfed. I understand that you have to support your creations and your origonal assertions but it really gets old when the players know something isn't right and all we get is "we know better than you do".


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Xyltin

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Urgot View Post
And why should it NOT feel worse? Look at pretty much every mage in the game. Their whole burst feels awful against someone with 200+ MR and 2.5k HP. Building armour SHOULD make his ult feel worse, just like building MR or a Hexdrinker makes every caster feel worse.

Also, a 700+ true damage nuke does WAY more against a squishy AD or mage as opposed to a Renekton with a Mallet/Randuins.
I saw and AD carry (Varus) fighting Darius. Both had around 7/4/x stats (Darius had a bit more assist but Varus had more farm).
Darius dropped down to 5% HP cause Varus kited him and held him at range with his ult and slow and everything.
Varus went in for the final shot -> Darius used E + his whole combo. 80% HP Varus was dead (both around lvl 16-18).

You can fight Darius, but if you make one mistake, you are probably dead. it feels liek fighting against Inferno Diablo. You can fight him as a ranged champ, and you will probably need 10 sec of perfect play to kill him. But if you make one mistake in that 10 sec, he kills you in an instant.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themadmoomoo View Post
why is your top lane getting to mid or bot without an mia? if youve lost your lane so bad by lvl 11 he can roam without MIAs then yuor doing something wrong
How does this happen in tournaments (mid or top ganking other lanes)?
I think you should train the pro players.


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KhaelvahN

Junior Member

05-26-2012

They could make the ult do 50% of the damage as true dmg the rest as physical.
Or
They could remove true dmg from ult take away his passive armor pent from his E and give him passive 20% of his dmg as true dmage scaling the same way per lvl his armor pent does.

If 10% passive true dmg is acceptable on ranged ad carry(corki) why not 20% on a melee?


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Lord AkitO

Junior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
We made Darius's ult true damage for a two primary reasons:
First, we wanted the Darius player to have some certainty over whether his ultimate would land a killing blow. Physical damage mitigation varies widely across champions and builds. It was extremely "mathy" to have to calculate what health was needed to score a kill.

Second, we wanted to make sure Darius's ult did not kill squishy ranged ADs and mages from full with low bleed stacks. When the ult was physical, the damage had to be so high to make it feel good against, say Renekton, that it was abusive versus Caitlyn. Notice that in the example you gave, Darius's lvl 3 Noxian Guillotine at max stacks with 60 bonus AD would be doing something like 300 physical damage to a lvl 18 Renekton with a Randuins and an Aegis.
Agree, puting darius ult to phisical dmg would become a one-shot kill at those champs like the ad carry and mages that don't buy armor so u would make their armor to kinda 0 and give like 1k+ dmg at them just on sight this is unfair and doesn't need to be that way, his ult is good the way it is, the main problem with darius is that he is new and ppl doesn't know how to play against him.