Raising from the dead, black cleaver vs last whisper (With math! YAY!)

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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

05-23-2012

TL : DR version : if your opponent has over 143.5 armor and your allies do not have armor reduction debuffs, get last whisper over the black cleaver, otherwise black cleaver is a better armor reduction item. if your allies do have armor reduction debuffs, you'll need to read further for how to calculate the break even point.

ok I just noticed quite a few people out there putting last whisper as a "core" item in their build but I know for fact that last whisper is a conditional item. why is it conditional? because it provides a lot less compared to black cleaver can.

now for those of you who still dont know, flat is applied before percentage, and reduction is applied before penetration, and penetration can not bring armor values down to 0

so heres the formula for those who are interested
TA = Target's armor, FAR = flat armor reduction, PAR = Percentage armor reduction, FAP = flat armor pen, PAP = percent armor pen

all the values of each sub catagory are added together, so if you had last whisper (40% armor pen) and weapon expertise (10 armor pen) you had a total of 50% armor pen

((TA-FAR)*(1-PAR))-FAP)*(1-PAP) = final armor, though like I said earlier, penetration can not bring the value below 0 so if the FAR and PAR brings it down to 0 or lower, the rest of the calculations is ignored, if FAP and PAP brings the value below 0 then the value remains 0

now that we know how to calculate this value, we can use it to determine at what armor value the enemy must have in order for last whisper to reduce more armor than black cleaver. we know that black cleaver reduces target's armor by 45 at max stacks, so at what armor value does 45 = 40%? it is 112.5, meaning that ((TA-FAR)*(1-PAR))-FAP) = 112.5, not TA = 112.5

most people who buy last whisper will have armor pen runes and sunder mastery which add about 31 armor pen (not including yellow and blue armor pen runes) so you would add this value in order to make sure armor pen from last whisper is the same as black cleaver which means that (TA-FAR)*(1-PAR) must = to 143.5 armor.

but wait there are still many other champions out there that also have armor reduction abilities as well, that apply a debuff thus must be counted in, and theres way too many to calculate, but you now have the base of how to calculate how much armor your opponent must have before last whisper becomes a better choice in terms of armor reduction.

or you can just pick up a black cleaver and skip the math since black cleaver is a constant value. or if you have no allies who apply an armor reduction debuff on your opponents, then you know that your opponent must have at least 143.5 armor before last whisper becomes a viable option over black cleaver. but then again black cleaver is a debuff and benefits everyone as well and that cant be ignored, dont forget this is a team game, and thus you fight in a team.


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Dane Belthound

Senior Member

05-23-2012

If they have 100 or less armor I go with BC, anything above I go with LW. Half the time I don't even look. If I am shredding people as an ad carry that means they don't have much armor. There is a small gray area where I may be losing out on minimal damage but I am not going to stress about it.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

05-23-2012

well the whole point of this thread is just to explain why the last whisper isnt a core item that you should get all the time. its a situational item that should only be bought in special cases.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

05-23-2012

This is incredibly simplistic and misleading math.You cannot do a straight up comparison like this and have any real useful meaning. There are a lot of other variables that come into play.


BC costs 3100 gold, whereas last whisper is 2100. At the very least this means LW will be completed much faster and giving its bonus for a longer time period.

BC requires you to get in THREE hits to get its maximum benefit. That's kind of a big deal for all Physical Casters isn't it? I mean, how often do you really get that many sustained autoattacks on the same target before you switch targets, they die, or you die? Its just not that often.

LW has AD only, whereas BC has stats in Attack Speed which may or may not be desirable.

BC works for the ENTIRE PARTY, not just yourself which is significant.

LW straight up costs 500g for the penetration (2100cost for 1600g of AD), whereas BC gives 2950g of stats for its 3100g cost, making its penetration much cheaper.

I'm not saying 1 is better than the other, but that it is much more situational than the above math indicates.


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Saprophite

Junior Member

05-23-2012

Fap doesnt = flat armor penetration.. therefore your math is bonkers.. thats is all


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Detractos

Junior Member

05-23-2012

Details of Black Cleaver

The very first auto attack does not get the benefit of the armor reduction. Physical damage from the auto attack is calculated first, and the debuff is applied after. This means the full benefit of the reduction is seen on the 4th hit after all 3 debuffs have been applied.


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SodiumAzide

Senior Member

05-24-2012

Some other kind gentlemen did alot of math on this. Bottom line is that AD casters take LW, AA'ers take BC. Period. Your DPS will be greater with the cleaver up to some ridiculous armor value. North of 300, because of the fact that BC's attack speed boost will slot an extra attack that essentially nullifies the bonus that the percent pen gets you.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

05-24-2012

I should have further clarify that this was really meant for those who would actually benefit from black cleaver as a viable choice in their build. also the reason why I made this post was because I saw way too many people thinking that last whisper should be a core item that you should buy every time, but really its a situational/counter build item that should be only taken when certain requirements are met.


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Wolfalisk

Member

05-24-2012

<1400 ELO wall of math move along.