Need tips on CS

12
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Gespens

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Senior Member

05-21-2012

1025 elo, well over 1200 total games played (half of them being wins).

I find that with AD carries and most solo tops that are not Nasus or Tryndamere, I have lots of trouble getting CS. I usually average out to 100 by twenty minutes, but I have been told that 'average' is at least 150.

I have tried everything, from using runes and masteries, to farming with skills, to practicing in customs... but I when I do this, I can't keep the lane frozen or I get harassed, which is my primary concern.

Unless the lane is super passive, I end up harassing with AoE spells like Buckshot, or Living Artillery as an AD carry to try and farm and harass at the same time, but I often fall behind if I don't win the trades.

As a top laner... I just suck at getting CS unless it is the super high single target DPS champs like Nasus or Tryn. I used to average at about 300 cs for a 25 minute game as Cho'gath, but for some reason I lost my touch.

You can look at my Runes and masteries. Favorite champs for AD carry are: Kog'maw and Graves. Looking into learning Tristana, Ashe, Sivir and Vayne.

Favorite Champs for solo top are: nasus, Tryndamere, Cho'gath. Looking to learn ho to lane as Olaf, Riven and do solo-top Morde (I play him mid at the moment).


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TheOneMillion

Senior Member

05-21-2012

It doesnt matter what 'Average' is. Average is only if its 2 laners just farming and harassing every once in a while. What matters is that you out CS / Kill your lane opponent, whether that be by zoning or just straight up being better at last hitting.


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Testicle Ketchup

Senior Member

05-21-2012

300 CS in a 25 minute game? I'd saying you're doing pretty **** good.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

05-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneMillion View Post
It doesnt matter what 'Average' is. Average is only if its 2 laners just farming and harassing every once in a while. What matters is that you out CS / Kill your lane opponent, whether that be by zoning or just straight up being better at last hitting.
Which is my major problem: I tend to play on the extremes of passive or aggressive and if I don't do well/get ganked, I fall off hard in that extreme.

I suppose I should be asking 'how to balance out aggression.'

Quote:
300 CS in a 25 minute game? I'd saying you're doing pretty **** good.
I used to get that. Now as Cho'gath, I am lucky to get 100 cs by 20 minutes. And it was also only because I ran this insanecounter jungle plan with my 5-man premade where I just push past tower, farm off the next wave, run into jungle and steal enemy camps, loop back to top.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

05-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
Which is my major problem: I tend to play on the extremes of passive or aggressive and if I don't do well/get ganked, I fall off hard in that extreme.

I suppose I should be asking 'how to balance out aggression.'
Excellent question, and I think you've done well to find the root cause. I'm going to give you some advice that applies not just to LoL and video games, but to any sort of competition:

Play the Player. Aggression and Preservation (self preservation) are opposites, and it's a matter of your state of mind vs your opponent's state of mind.

If you can guarantee that your opponent isn't going to attack you back, then you can neglect defense. The trick is knowing when your opponent isn't (or can't) attack you. There are a variety of ways you can figure that out. The simplest is when you're in a team fight and your opponents are focusing someone else. But in a 1v1 situation, it's entirely about reading your opponent's intentions. If you can intimidate your opponent into thinking that they can't win, but they can survive if they try to run, then they'll run and not attack you.

3 Modes:
Attack, Defense, Counter-attack...and the balance between them.

Ideally, you never want to be on pure defense. You should always be setting up a counter attack or be attacking.

Feinting:
Play mind games against your opponent. Run up like you're about to engage, but don't use your initiation moves. The opponent will burn their escapes and defenses or back out. Get them used to seeing you charge forward until they start thinking that it means nothing. Then pounce on them with a real attack combo when they don't expect it.

Also know that your opponent will be doing this to you as well, so all things being equal, it comes down to a game of who can out-smart who.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

05-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
Excellent question, and I think you've done well to find the root cause. I'm going to give you some advice that applies not just to LoL and video games, but to any sort of competition:

Play the Player. Aggression and Preservation (self preservation) are opposites, and it's a matter of your state of mind vs your opponent's state of mind.

If you can guarantee that your opponent isn't going to attack you back, then you can neglect defense. The trick is knowing when your opponent isn't (or can't) attack you. There are a variety of ways you can figure that out. The simplest is when you're in a team fight and your opponents are focusing someone else. But in a 1v1 situation, it's entirely about reading your opponent's intentions. If you can intimidate your opponent into thinking that they can't win, but they can survive if they try to run, then they'll run and not attack you.

3 Modes:
Attack, Defense, Counter-attack...and the balance between them.

Ideally, you never want to be on pure defense. You should always be setting up a counter attack or be attacking.

Feinting:
Play mind games against your opponent. Run up like you're about to engage, but don't use your initiation moves. The opponent will burn their escapes and defenses or back out. Get them used to seeing you charge forward until they start thinking that it means nothing. Then pounce on them with a real attack combo when they don't expect it.

Also know that your opponent will be doing this to you as well, so all things being equal, it comes down to a game of who can out-smart who.
Just tried this with AD Graves bot. While I lost the trade part against a Cait because their support was Shen andm y support never played the role before, I grossly outfarmed her and won the late game with Kennen, so I didn't fall behind.

Thank you, this advice really did help.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

05-21-2012

And that's another key thing to note: Winning the lane isn't about trading damage and harassment (though it helps). CS is the ultimate goal. Kills are 300 gold usually, so that's effectively 2 minion waves. If you can harass them out of 12 CS for every death you give up, you've gone pretty even.

Aggression isn't limited to just enemy champions.

Here's something else to try:
Remember what I said about guaranteeing your opponent can't attack back so you can neglect defense? There's a small timing window when the opponent stops to auto attack a minion, where they can't be attacking you, nor can they be moving. You can land easy skill shots then and if your move speed is higher, get away before eating too much counter-harass.


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Pretorix

Senior Member

05-21-2012

So many good pointers in this thread. Another key tip is to watch both their minions and your minions and to know how hard they need to hit in order to get that last hit. If there's a minion they can last hit or it's gonna get merked by your minions, push them off it. Throw a cheap shot at them so they cant get that ONE minion, but do that often. I've been going mid as Kass a lot lately and trust me, after 4 - 5 waves of this it quickly adds up. You end up getting more farm, better items, and essentially you can zone them out of exp after awhile as well. On the point of aggression, you can be aggressive and zone them off your creeps while last hitting mid lane. The KEY is to back off your creeps once they've pushed onto the tower. Let their tower do the work for you. Most people cant last hit off a tower without skills early game. That really ruins their CS.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

05-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
And that's another key thing to note: Winning the lane isn't about trading damage and harassment (though it helps). CS is the ultimate goal. Kills are 300 gold usually, so that's effectively 2 minion waves. If you can harass them out of 12 CS for every death you give up, you've gone pretty even.

Aggression isn't limited to just enemy champions.

Here's something else to try:
Remember what I said about guaranteeing your opponent can't attack back so you can neglect defense? There's a small timing window when the opponent stops to auto attack a minion, where they can't be attacking you, nor can they be moving. You can land easy skill shots then and if your move speed is higher, get away before eating too much counter-harass.
Thankfully, my main ADs are Kog and Graves, meaning that I can just skill shot and move away or just simply stay out of their range.

Quote:
So many good pointers in this thread. Another key tip is to watch both their minions and your minions and to know how hard they need to hit in order to get that last hit. If there's a minion they can last hit or it's gonna get merked by your minions, push them off it. Throw a cheap shot at them so they cant get that ONE minion, but do that often. I've been going mid as Kass a lot lately and trust me, after 4 - 5 waves of this it quickly adds up. You end up getting more farm, better items, and essentially you can zone them out of exp after awhile as well. On the point of aggression, you can be aggressive and zone them off your creeps while last hitting mid lane. The KEY is to back off your creeps once they've pushed onto the tower. Let their tower do the work for you. Most people cant last hit off a tower without skills early game. That really ruins their CS.
I actually know that part about denying. I do it all the time when I play AP Kog and is actually how I used to get 300 cs as Cho. I'd push to tower, dive past tower, loop around and go back to lane. Lately though, my friends and I have been neglecting our warding so I can't do this anymore unless I know where the jngler is.

Oh, also... who are some good farming tops and bots that I did not mention?


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Dane Belthound

Senior Member

05-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
1025 elo, well over 1200 total games played (half of them being wins).

I find that with AD carries and most solo tops that are not Nasus or Tryndamere, I have lots of trouble getting CS. I usually average out to 100 by twenty minutes, but I have been told that 'average' is at least 150.

I have tried everything, from using runes and masteries, to farming with skills, to practicing in customs... but I when I do this, I can't keep the lane frozen or I get harassed, which is my primary concern.

Unless the lane is super passive, I end up harassing with AoE spells like Buckshot, or Living Artillery as an AD carry to try and farm and harass at the same time, but I often fall behind if I don't win the trades.

As a top laner... I just suck at getting CS unless it is the super high single target DPS champs like Nasus or Tryn. I used to average at about 300 cs for a 25 minute game as Cho'gath, but for some reason I lost my touch.

You can look at my Runes and masteries. Favorite champs for AD carry are: Kog'maw and Graves. Looking into learning Tristana, Ashe, Sivir and Vayne.

Favorite Champs for solo top are: nasus, Tryndamere, Cho'gath. Looking to learn ho to lane as Olaf, Riven and do solo-top Morde (I play him mid at the moment).

The average you speak of is from pro games. Ever watch one? They dont harass early game. You end up with scores that are like 10 and 8 kills. They are much more cautious and passive players. You will rarely see them play a game where each side has 40+ kills like you see in a typical ranked game. The only way you are pulling off 150 CS is if the people you are laning against are god awful/extremely passive. WHich does happen. Also, I am sure that like me, your ability to last hit fluctuates.


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