Mana Steal

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Dolan PLS

Member

05-16-2012

If there's life steal, why not mana steal? I admit that I've gotten this idea from playing Diablo II, but the mana steal doesn't need to steal the opponent's mana, it should just enable you to get mana back for autoattacking.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

05-16-2012

Because mana is supposed to be a balancing factor for champions. Mana costs are fixed, and access to mana is controlled somewhat early game.

Ranged carries, Bruisers (including melee carries and assassins), Mages, Supports, and Tanks champions who do not build additional mana are partially balanced around they idea they will run out of mana if they are out fighting for too long. Mana steal would unfortunately remove all mana issues from at least a few champions with mana if the mechanic is strong enough to be worth taking on anyone at all, no matter how it is implemented.

  • % max mana on abilities or attacks would be too strong or too useless with no in-between.
  • Flat mana on abilities or attacks would favor fast attackers or fast spammers. Both of those ironically tend to have relatively low mana costs so effectively they would no longer use mana if the mechanic was strong enough to be worth taking on anyone with a slower spam/attack rate.
  • Damage-scaling mana would return retarded amounts of mana to mages or carries while being practically useless on tanks, supports, and bruisers.
  • Basing the mana return on cooldowns, slower attacks, or mana costs in an attempt to balance it out would be far too complicated, and would not unniversally work in many circumstances.

Mana-stealing is just a bad idea.
If anything, mana problems can be fixed within current itemization, although more items with mana would be convenient.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

05-16-2012

Axes covered everything on mana steal. And mana burn was removed because it was either useless or overpowered, depending on the situation. If you burned 300 mana out of 1000, they didn't care. If you burned 300 mana out of 400, it made a huge problem.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

05-16-2012

except the fact that kass already has this ability built into his kit right?


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axesandspears

Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
except the fact that kass already has this ability built into his kit right?
Kassadin and Taric, but their abilities are priced with that in mind. That is why Taric and Kassadin have such high mana costs on their major abilities even though neither one can actually afford to auto-attack much during a fight to benefit from those passive restores.

Other champions are not specifically adjusted for a fixed version of this mechanic; therefore, they would not be balanced with it.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
except the fact that kass already has this ability built into his kit right?
And Udyr and Taric, but all three of those champions are balanced with that mana vamp in mind. Releasing it as an item effect and having it as a specific champion's skill are far different from each other.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

05-16-2012

well what I mean is that the ability does exist, and can be balanced as its shown already. so the ability itself isnt over powered or to be pointless or what not

the way you can balance it out is pricing and stats, it can be a fairly low stated item and fairly expensive item, such that your forced to lose an item slot for the ability and with only 6 item slots, (1 being almost forced to take boots in so really you only have 5) it could be a possibility. and making it a fairly expensive item would mean that this would delay their core build so they would have to decide if its worth the delay.

make it so it doesnt have any damage stats and make it a regen item and you'll have very little reason to purchase it unless you really do have mana regen problems


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
well what I mean is that the ability does exist, and can be balanced as its shown already. so the ability itself isnt over powered or to be pointless or what not

the way you can balance it out is pricing and stats, it can be a fairly low stated item and fairly expensive item, such that your forced to lose an item slot for the ability and with only 6 item slots, (1 being almost forced to take boots in so really you only have 5) it could be a possibility. and making it a fairly expensive item would mean that this would delay their core build so they would have to decide if its worth the delay.

make it so it doesnt have any damage stats and make it a regen item and you'll have very little reason to purchase it unless you really do have mana regen problems
See, that's the problem.

No matter how you design it, you either have to make it a crappy item (thus not worth buying ever) or it ends up overpowered (must-have on mana-using carries).

The ability existing on a specific champion is merely because that champion was balanced with that in mind. Udyr, Taric and Kassadin have their kits and abilities balanced with their mana vamp present, while other champions are balanced without it, because they don't have it. Making it suddenly available to everyone would not be balanced, because either you make the item not worth it to anyone (e.g. crappy stats, expensive item) or it's worth it to too many champions and it's easily abused.

Plus, it would probably result in a mana cost increase on a lot of champions' abilities because if they CAN abuse it, they WILL. It's not a balanced concept outside of specific champions' abilities.

There are three ways that an effect concept can work; it will either be easily balanced around all champions, balanced within one specific champion's kit, or it won't be balanced within League of Legends' parameters. This is one that only stays balanced within one champion's kit.


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NinjaCÅT

Senior Member

05-17-2012

Damage-scaling mana would return retarded amounts of mana to mages or carries while being practically useless on tanks, supports, and bruisers.
well most tanks/ bruisers dont need much mana .... i kinda like a damage-scaling mana idea
just saying


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axesandspears

Senior Member

05-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaCT View Post
Damage-scaling mana would return retarded amounts of mana to mages or carries while being practically useless on tanks, supports, and bruisers.
well most tanks/ bruisers dont need much mana .... i kinda like a damage-scaling mana idea
just saying
Amumu (tank), Allistar (tank) if he's trying to cc much during a fight and spam heals, Malphite (support-bruiser), Blitzcrank (support-bruiser), Nautilus (support-bruiser), and Rammus (tank) all have more severe mana problems than carries and most mages (not including the mages that are specifically designed to have mana problems because of high base damage (Anivia), high sustain (Swain), or a built-in mana restoration effect (Veigar/Kassadin).

Most tanks and most older bruisers do need to build mana, it is only a few of the newer ones that do not.

Damage-based mana scaling is not balanced, and it mostly helps champions that need it the least while being useless for champions who need it the most.

Either way, as it has already been stated several times mana sustain effects other than mana regen and pool buff are not balanced outside of specific champion kits. As for Golem buff, champions are not balanced around those buffs, those are supposed to be strategic "buffs" to make the game more interesting. Golem buff has already been nerfed a few times because it provided too much mana sustain, why the hell would anyone think that this warrants adding stronger mana sustain to the game?