How would you feel if these were in the game?

Great idea. 63 69.23%
I don't see the point. 21 23.08%
i don't care. 7 7.69%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

item ideas - had 50 players look at these so i'm putting them on here

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sniperfodderz

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Senior Member

05-16-2012

In my view, giving mana sustain isn't a problem because "sustain" in such a way is only a laning phase issue. If you're going to spend money on an item just to stay in longer in lane in laning phase, that's fine. AS for the item as a whole, I feel like overall it might require some additional balancing, but having a hybrid item that's good is always a plus considering how they don't get most multipliers.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperfodderz View Post
In my view, giving mana sustain isn't a problem because "sustain" in such a way is only a laning phase issue.
Mana costs are intended to keep champions from being able to stay out in the field indefinitely both during and long after the laning phase. Mana restoration by doing some form of damage is just a broken mechanic that should not be implemented outside of champions that have it in their kits. In which case the mana costs are adjusted for that discrepency. You didn't think all of Taric's spells had enough impact to actually be worth 90+ mana did you? The spells are priced with Taric's passive in mind even though players do not benefit from it most of the time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperfodderz View Post
If you're going to spend money on an item just to stay in longer in lane in laning phase, that's fine. AS for the item as a whole, I feel like overall it might require some additional balancing, but having a hybrid item that's good is always a plus considering how they don't get most multipliers.
Hybrids have two damage types that effectively make it twice as expensive to counterbuild against them, and their ratios are balanced for their respective damage, so the lack of scalars should not be an issue. They are compensated in one way or another for that lack within their own kits.

The only place where there is some lack is hybrid penetration, but since hybrids use two damage types there simply isn't as much need for it and making armor/magic penetration more accessible can cause problems for the pure physical and pure magic damage champions.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordofluxuary View Post
i see your points but as for the second item it is not vamp since it is restored and not leeched from the target. also as for the kass aspect it is but it depends when and how you choose to build or upgrade kass. for your point about it being more than taric's passive it would be 160 to be exact but yes it would out do it but again different champ not exactly for them. then again all items are really about preference because when using a champ we all want something and when fighting a champ we fell they should not have certain things. but is mana restoration really that bad, i don't really like having all that extra gold in some games that run 50 and 60 minutes long so upgrades don't always hurt but that's why i ask for input.
Vamp is also just restoration, because it's based on your damage numbers, not on how much damage you dealt to their HP bar (if I crit for 500 more than a minion's HP, I still get the full heal value, it doesn't stop at the kill point).

There is no Kassadin player who maxes W over Q or E, because a near-3 second silence is too good to pass up, and the AoE damage on his E is amazing as well. W is his 1-point skill, and also the one he picks up at level 4.

True, Taric would need 160 if the target has 0 Armor, but any more and he needs more damage or Armor Pen. Again, Taric never hits that much AD.

Mana Vamp sounds like a cool idea, but it's not really balanced with consideration of newer champions. Older champions like Tristana and Sion wouldn't be overpowered with it (they've got 80-100 mana costs on most their spells), but newer champs like Graves and Wukong have much lower mana costs and would end up too powerful.

Point in case: the only thing necessary to do with mana is to revise older champions' costs/pools.


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Lordofluxuary

Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeadman View Post
Vamp is also just restoration, because it's based on your damage numbers, not on how much damage you dealt to their HP bar (if I crit for 500 more than a minion's HP, I still get the full heal value, it doesn't stop at the kill point).

There is no Kassadin player who maxes W over Q or E, because a near-3 second silence is too good to pass up, and the AoE damage on his E is amazing as well. W is his 1-point skill, and also the one he picks up at level 4.

True, Taric would need 160 if the target has 0 Armor, but any more and he needs more damage or Armor Pen. Again, Taric never hits that much AD.

Mana Vamp sounds like a cool idea, but it's not really balanced with consideration of newer champions. Older champions like Tristana and Sion wouldn't be overpowered with it (they've got 80-100 mana costs on most their spells), but newer champs like Graves and Wukong have much lower mana costs and would end up too powerful.

Point in case: the only thing necessary to do with mana is to revise older champions' costs/pools.
i do understand your point and again opinions are different like people, but my reason for being able to "buy kassadin's w passive" is because i know people who don't enjoy relying on mana regeneration and this would make it easier to focus on other problems in game for summoners but again this is why i want input.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordofluxuary View Post
i do understand your point and again opinions are different like people, but my reason for being able to "buy kassadin's w passive" is because i know people who don't enjoy relying on mana regeneration and this would make it easier to focus on other problems in game for summoners but again this is why i want input.
The difference between the constant harass of a Wukong with some mana regen and one without is probably the easiest way to illustrate why mana regen on hit is a bad idea as a universal stat.

His full combo of E/Q/W to get away is draining. Somewhere around the 130-140 mark I believe, which is a fair chunk of Mana for the Monkey King.

An ability that restores 12, 8, even 6 mana back per swing means Wukong never has to worry about mana ever. Wu is a less problematic example as building towards infinite mana means his actual health sustain is kind of bad.

Now imagine a champion with built in health sustain that can do comparable damage to Wukong with the same amount of mana. It's kind of broken there.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea De Penserhir View Post
The difference between the constant harass of a Wukong with some mana regen and one without is probably the easiest way to illustrate why mana regen on hit is a bad idea as a universal stat.

His full combo of E/Q/W to get away is draining. Somewhere around the 130-140 mark I believe, which is a fair chunk of Mana for the Monkey King.

An ability that restores 12, 8, even 6 mana back per swing means Wukong never has to worry about mana ever. Wu is a less problematic example as building towards infinite mana means his actual health sustain is kind of bad.

Now imagine a champion with built in health sustain that can do comparable damage to Wukong with the same amount of mana. It's kind of broken there.
I was personally thinking Jax cause he gets by with 1 sustain item and has ridiculous DPS and self-sustain, in addition to all mana costs being less than 100.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

05-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeadman View Post
I was personally thinking Jax cause he gets by with 1 sustain item and has ridiculous DPS and self-sustain, in addition to all mana costs being less than 100.
Yeah, that would actually be pretty ridiculous. Nothing but empower / leap strike spams all day.

What's that, you like minions? NOPE YOU AIN'T GETTING ANY.


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Lordofluxuary

Member

05-18-2012

I've added more items to this list so i'd like your input on these also. and please remember just because you fix mana or make champions stay longer does not break the game and also if jax got mana regen then it would be the same no. but again opinions are what these are and i appriciate the comments.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

05-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeadman View Post
There is no Kassadin player who maxes W over Q or E, because a near-3 second silence is too good to pass up, and the AoE damage on his E is amazing as well. W is his 1-point skill, and also the one he picks up at level 4.

True, Taric would need 160 if the target has 0 Armor, but any more and he needs more damage or Armor Pen. Again, Taric never hits that much AD.
These 2 points I have comments on;

Back when Kassadin's W provided 50 Armor Penetration, it was perfectly viable to go assassincarry as him, building a Ghostblade as your first item, then lifesteal, and maxing W (meaning your effective Armor Penetration, with runes, could be 100 at level 9.) This granted ridiculously large ganking power when you had red buff, since EVERY lane was under the threat of instant kill Kassadin (since the moment he came into the sight of the ward, he could Riftwalk too close to let you get away.) The silence was golden, but without red buff, you absolutely needed the slow to kill people... so the build was really difficult to pull off without red. Then Riot removed his Armor Penetration, completely removing DPS Kassadin.

Taric also should always have a Manamune; not only does it mean INFINITE mana for him, but it also ends up giving him ~70-100 extra AD. Combined with his ultimate, he becomes an offcarry for the duration, but he can build every other item as tanky items. This isn't to say you should rush a Manamune, but you should have a Tear of the Goddess before leaving laning phase.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

05-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
These 2 points I have comments on;

Back when Kassadin's W provided 50 Armor Penetration, it was perfectly viable to go assassincarry as him, building a Ghostblade as your first item, then lifesteal, and maxing W (meaning your effective Armor Penetration, with runes, could be 100 at level 9.) This granted ridiculously large ganking power when you had red buff, since EVERY lane was under the threat of instant kill Kassadin (since the moment he came into the sight of the ward, he could Riftwalk too close to let you get away.) The silence was golden, but without red buff, you absolutely needed the slow to kill people... so the build was really difficult to pull off without red. Then Riot removed his Armor Penetration, completely removing DPS Kassadin.

Taric also should always have a Manamune; not only does it mean INFINITE mana for him, but it also ends up giving him ~70-100 extra AD. Combined with his ultimate, he becomes an offcarry for the duration, but he can build every other item as tanky items. This isn't to say you should rush a Manamune, but you should have a Tear of the Goddess before leaving laning phase.
Yes, I fully remember playing DPS Kassadin myself. That was, what, at least a year ago? I could be off, but it was quite a while back. Point is, today, not a single Kassadin player ever maxes W before Q or E. Q silence is too powerful, E burst in team fights+50% slow is amazing, and W really only adds a little damage on top of the mana sustain.

And I haven't seen any Taric players get TotG/Manamune, but a pseudo-carry Taric probably would want that. Still considering his stats, he has 121 base AD at 18, Manamune gives 20+52.26 bumping him to 173 AD (enough as long as his target has less than 8 Armor, literally). His ulti is an additional 70 (now we're up to 53 Armor, still lower than base level 18 Armor's 61-90).

Just saying, this item would almost unconditionally provide more mana return than Taric's passive, and it would certainly outshine pre-15 Kassadin's mana sustain on attack, and most importantly it would be available to champions who weren't balanced for this sort of mana sustain.


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