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Crit chance or Crit dmg?

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macgyver99

Junior Member

08-16-2010

what ones are better?


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PardonMySwag

Senior Member

08-16-2010

Armor pen is MILES ahead of crit damage. Crit chance is a pretty meh rune in general, can't think of any champions it would be good for. If you must choose between those two, get crit damage.


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MeIquiades

Member

08-16-2010

If you want to do physical damage get Armor pen (for reds at least) unless you're tryn then get crit chance (or maybe pirate, although i think armpen is better).

As a rule never get crit damage for reds(there was a thread with the math and whatnot showing why armor pen is better, but without search i'm not going to look for it). I think crit damage is viable in blues on the right champions; I know ReginaId runs them on Ezreal.


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Rat Star

Member

08-16-2010

Quote:
PardonMySwag:
Armor pen is MILES ahead of crit damage. Crit chance is a pretty meh rune in general, can't think of any champions it would be good for. If you must choose between those two, get crit damage.


Tryndamere.


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MeIquiades

Member

08-16-2010

Quote:
ricklessabandon:
they make each other better. one way to look at it is that your crit.dam will increase your crit.ch's effectiveness.

to explain more specifically:
-crit.ch increases your damage output (on average) by a 1:1 ratio. that is, 30% crit.ch will increase your damage output by 30%.
-crit.dam increases your crit.ch's ratio on a 1:1 ratio. that is, 30% crit.dam will upgrade your crit.ch effectiveness ratio to 1:1.3 and make that 30% crit.ch now a 39% increase in your damage output.

so, the more crit.ch you have, the more effective crit.dam will be and vice versa.
an important way to look at it is that 1% crit.ch will always increase your base damage by 1%, and 1% crit.dam will only be equally effective at 100% crit.ch...

therefore, if you're comparing equal values, crit.ch is always better until you have 100% crit.ch.
at that point, they would be equal if crit.ch could actually increase your damage output any further

only get crit.dam if you know you're going to cap your crit.ch in a game.


More than just knowing you're going to cap your crit would be needed. In order for crit dmg to provide more dmg on CRITS (on average, depends on armor, etc.) than armor pen does you have to have an IE. This was proven in the thread I mentioned earlier.

Because of the limitations of forcing yourself into a cookie-cutter build, crit dmg marks are never going to be a good option (armor pen unless you're tryn--then crit chance like a said before). I still believe that crit dmg blues have a small niche, but they are a different thread (at least that I can tell).


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SpecialDelivery

Member

08-17-2010

Quote:
ricklessabandon:
also, getting an infinity edge has nothing to do with how effective crit.dam is


Please tell me this is a joke.


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CrazyCranium

Recruiter

08-17-2010

Actually, it may seem counter intuitive, but crit damage runes are actually LESS effective if you have an IE. It is a less significant boost going from 250% to 260% than it is going from 200% to 210%.

But this doesn't matter because you should never be getting crit damage over armor pen. The only time crit damage will be more effective than armor pen is when your target has very high armor and you have nearly 100% crit chance, a scenario that does not happen very often.

Even with a guaranteed crit, armor pen will do more damage than crit damage if the target has less than about 130 armor.

tl.dr. get armor pen runes, at least for marks


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CrazyCranium

Recruiter

08-17-2010

Because I've done the math on it.

Lets say you have 100% crit chance without an IE. Adding 10% crit damage from runes (an arbitrary amount) will increase your overall damage by 10/200=5%

Now lets say you have 100% crit damage with an IE, now adding 10% crit damage from runes will only increase you overall damage by 10/250=4%

The more crit damage you stack, the less effective each successive point is. The opposite is true for flat armor pen, the more of it you stack, the more effective it is (until you penetrate to 0)


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Issege

Junior Member

08-17-2010

Even if crit damage or armor pen did more damage, I would still take crit chance as tryn simply because it makes his early game (which is normally a painful experience) into something a lot more manageable.

more crits=more bloodlust stacks=more heals=less harassable


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CrazyCranium

Recruiter

08-17-2010

I am looking at the numbers from a relative perspective because that is what matters if you want to maximize your DPS. Increasing your expected damage from 100 to 110 is a lot different than increasing it from 500 to 510.

DPS stats like crit chance, crit damage, AD, and ASPD all scale linearly by themselves, but stack multiplicatively with each other. The more of one stat you stack, the less effective it is to continue stacking that stat, and the more effective it is to stack other dps stats. If you already have 250% crit damage (from IE), it is not cost effective to continue stacking more of it via runes but it is better to get more of another stat such as crit chance and armor pen.

Armor pen is different, the more of it you stack, the more effective it is (I believe the growth is hyperbolic until you reach 0). The benefit you gain from it also stacks multiplicatively with the other dps stats. If someone has 30 armor (early game stats) and you have 30 armor pen (marks and quints only) the damage you deal is increased by 30%. This is a huge boost and the reason you see most people using armor pen marks on physical carries. This does taper down a bit late game when people have a chance to get armor, but even when the target has 130 armor (late game non-tanks) your 30 ArPen still translates into a 15% damage increase, still very significant for only using marks and quints.

Even on a guaranteed crit, armor pen runes will make you do more damage than you can get from crit damage runes unless the enemy is heavily stacking armor, but you shouldn’t be focusing the tank first anyways. Armor pen also has the benefit of affecting your non-crits and physical abilities as well. It also works against towers (which you can’t crit).

Critical strike is good for spike damage, which can catch an enemy off guard. If you want more spikes, get crit chance runes, if you want harder spikes and harder normal hits, get armor pen. If you build IE early, get crit chance. If you get brutalizer, youmuu’s, starks, and/or black cleaver get armor pen. In no case whatsoever should you ever get crit damage runes.

The math has been done on this many times, but it is common consensus that ArPen runes > crit chance > crit damage. There are some exceptions to this rule such as Trynd preferring crit chance to get bloodlust stacks as was mentioned by Issege. Attack speed runes can be good for jungling since the neutral creeps are nice enough to stand still while you attack them unlike most smart enemy players.


TL.DR. Get armor pen marks and quints


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