Why elo hell does not exist and why that is good

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Insípid

Senior Member

05-10-2012

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Guppers

Member

05-10-2012

haha, well said aspired


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Ducky33

Member

05-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guppers View Post
Definition of elo hell: the belief that you cannot raise your elo because of players on your team performing poorly

I am in 800 elo and I find it very difficult to raise it in solo queue, but the fact remains, I belong in the elo that I'm at.

Misconception about elo: Elo should be a measurement of how good person x is at LOL

Reality about elo: Elo measures how well person x plays on a team with 4 other people.

So everyone thinks, that elo hell exists because they get trolls or 10 year olds on their team and no matter how well they play they can't win.
This is true, no matter how good you are, if you get some people on your team that throw the game away you can't possibly carry them all

People seem to understand how probability works when it is explaining their losses, but not their wins.

Rarely do people think they won a game because the other team wasn't good enough (yes I know there are times with the other team is obviously trolling) for the most part the testimony of everyone is that they lose because of trolls and they win because they are good and overcame said trolls.

Think about it this way, let's assign an arbitrary number to the probability of getting a troll.
Let's say 20%. Let's also assume that you "belong" in a higher elo and you yourself are not a troll. You have a 20% chance on each of 4 people to get a troll or a bad player. That sounds terrible, almost like you would get a troll the majority of the time.. and you will with those numbers.

however!

the other team also has a 20% chance of every member being trolls and here is the kicker! they don't have YOU!!!!! you are the only known variable in this situation, they have 5 chances of receiving a troll whereas you only have 4.

Now a less educated person would say.. but Guppers, you can roll a 1 on a die 10 times in a row, i.e. it feels llike I get a troll every game.

Indeed that can happen, roll that die 100000 times instead of 10 times and I promise you will see 1/6 rolls are a 1 over large numbers. So if you play enough games... the other team will receive more trolls than you.

So now you're saying.. but if all that is true, i've played thousands of games and I still can't rise out of elo hell. /cough /cough /ahem

that's because the inevitability of analyzing the math says that over a large number of games you wind up in the ELO you belong in. If you are in 800 elo after that many games then I'm sorry friend, math says you belong there. BUT!!!!!

this is a GOOD thing not a BAD thing because that means if we are the problem then we can fix the problem. Thinking that your losses are the result of other people in a strategy is a viscous poison and it's the real thing holding you back.

Everytime you lose a game, no matter how well you played, you need to look for the little things that you could have still done better (and they exist).

Did you die too early in that team fight and you guys got aced? would wards have helped you? Would a better position have helped you?

Did you get ganked early in your lane? Perhaps could you have chosen a better character if you knew who you were going up aginst?

Did someone die while you were farming? should you have been helping them or maybe it really was just their fault for where they were at.

My point is, in any given situation the fault of failure very well might not be your own. But you should never just dismiss it as such, even if it's the truth, think for 15 seconds if there were any circumstances in that situation where you could have made up for the failings of your team and think of how you can execute that next time. That is called carrying, and that is how you will rise to the elo you want.

TL;DR: assume every bad thing that happens is your fault and think about how you could have made it better
Best thing I have seen on this forum regarding elo hell ever.


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XxNoWorryxX

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Senior Member

05-10-2012

can be more careful in rankeds? for 1 troll i lost 12 elo.. sivir buy.... magic resist??? shen????? manamune<----- OMG?????? BT<----- 4t item finally 1 ad item... and bow of phys pen<---- not bad.. BUT AND INFINITY?? PHANTON??? ALL TIME SAID HIM MAN GET INFINITY OR MADRED OR PHANTON PLZ.. ALL TIME SAID NO MY BUILD IS PRO... UR NAME IS : shorttallguy <---- sivir name... finish 2/11.. and i finish 20/11/10.. why i must lost for 1 noob?? gift me 1 skin or some riot points for my loss... in return for being a good player.. and im not troll.. I EXPECT A RESPONSE..

I LIKE FIZZ SKIN OR NASUS K9-RIOT ... CHANGE MY NASUS GALACTIC FOR K9-RIOT..


TY =)


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FusedPositron

Senior Member

05-10-2012

The flaw in the OP's logic is that it relies on the law of large numbers. It really does take a considerable number of games to work out any sizable ELO improvement. Thus, casual gamers don't stand a chance, unless they are the luckiest person in the world. Sure, I make mistakes, but game after game, my overall play is consistently above my ELO. Most games get thrown by people that just make horrible decisions. If I'm playing AD carry bot, our jungler tower dives unwinnable matches. If I'm playing top, our AD carry and support are horrible. In any event, you cannot make up for 2 or 3 fifths of your team being either terrible, or just getting counterpicked. In the long run, this would even out in my favor but the fact is, that's the long run and I'm not in it for playing 10 games a day.

tl;dr The system is biased towards professional players, good casual players aren't represented well by this ELO system.


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Haen

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Senior Member

05-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FusedPositron View Post
The flaw in the OP's logic is that it relies on the law of large numbers. It really does take a considerable number of games to work out any sizable ELO improvement. Thus, casual gamers don't stand a chance, unless they are the luckiest person in the world. Sure, I make mistakes, but game after game, my overall play is consistently above my ELO. Most games get thrown by people that just make horrible decisions. If I'm playing AD carry bot, our jungler tower dives unwinnable matches. If I'm playing top, our AD carry and support are horrible. In any event, you cannot make up for 2 or 3 fifths of your team being either terrible, or just getting counterpicked. In the long run, this would even out in my favor but the fact is, that's the long run and I'm not in it for playing 10 games a day.

tl;dr The system is biased towards professional players, good casual players aren't represented well by this ELO system.
This is definitely the best counter argument so far. Yes, absolutely you do need games for true placement. But thats true of most any system. The less information you have, the harder it is to make a judgement about anything.


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Mr SlaM Boddies

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Member

05-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guppers View Post
I'll take that as a "no, I didn't read the OP, I'm convinced elo hell exists in spite of the math and no piece of logic can convince me otherwise, lest I have to admit that I might not be as good as I thought i was, therefore causing my delicate ego to crash down around me"
i hope u never play in the real elo of hell... You lucky don't meet those players yet...


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Digressed

Senior Member

05-11-2012

I'm sorry to people who think elo hell is real. Really elo hell happens because you can not keep your cool and let the team snowball into a bad game.

My first game almost turned into that as my teamates kept fighting with eachother. All it really took was "Hey guys, I'm gonna have to ask you to calm down and focus. Stay together and follow me."

Guess what? We won after that.

If you just focus on how bad they do and rage at them you are just gonna make it worse. You wanna make the team moral good,


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Kavrae

Senior Member

05-11-2012

+1

Definitely one of the best explanations regarding the faults of the "elo hell" argument. Fused certainly has a good point about the law of large numbers, though there's not much that can be done about it.


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Axiom Prime

Senior Member

05-11-2012

Lol I think that seems to be the trend when playing super agressively, some games you go hard, the rest you get punished for it. I dont think there's a middle ground for super aggressive play.