Need a new AP

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Hékate

Senior Member

05-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardTS View Post
You can't hit his W on competent people without Rank 3 in E
You can't hit his W on competent people with Tenacity without Rank 5 in E

This means you must level your stun or be a walking Q. And his Q is ok, but its not enough. Veigar must level all his skills to be effective.

He has no escape and his only saving grace (W) is on a looong 20s CD at R1. Again, it needs to be leveled.

His ratios are -ok-. 0.6 on his bread and butter is slightly below average. 1.0 on his E is great, but its useless outside farming minions and until you get your stun ranked.

His ultimate is his one trick, which is even lessened in a mode where only a few stack AP.


I'm sure he's great once he's level 13-15. But at that point...
I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with veigar being bad/good on dominion as I haven't tested him much, but I would have to say that the point of not being able to hit competent players with your W is a user issue, not flaw in his kit. The same could be said about any skillshot. Playing skillshot champs = learning your enemies moving patterns or using your skillshots while they aren't focused on you. If you're trying to cast his W ON the enemy champ, you're doing it wrong. You should be casting where you think the champ WILL BE in a second.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

05-09-2012

Well, just playing Devil's Advocate here: if AP Teemo is viable, I find it hard to imagine Viegar can't be effective as well. Sure, he doesn't have invisible mushrooms, but the argument that 'you can't land W against a competent enemy' is about the same as the argument 'a competent enemy will know you have mushrooms around or will buy Oracle's'.

The obvious counter-argument is the CDs, primarily on his E, which is very long. However, I would bet you could have a very similar build to your AP Teemo build, Grignard, and possibly experience similar results. I think that if one were to become effective at landing his W outside of E, which is very similar to Kog's R (and AP Kog is considered viable), that he could be played to great success. E's cooldown becomes incredibly low with levels and CDR.

Maybe this is incentive to give the little guy a try...


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-09-2012

To both of you about the W, you are looking from the perspective of the player of Veigar.

"Hey, I can land my W!"

Yes you can.

But look at it the opposite way. If you were letting a Veigar hit you with his W outside of hard CC, would it be due to his superior play? Or you just not reacting fast enough or not paying attention?

I mean, come on, its a 1.2s delayed bright light beam that shines down and makes a loud noise. So much easier to dodge than Kog's. 900 units doesn't give Veigar enough breathing room to properly lead targets with it. Hell, when I play Kog his 1450 seems short.

I know if I get hit by it I call myself dumb. Me being dumb doesn't make the Veigar good.


And to the above about AP Teemo. I've clocked in about 50 games with AP Teemo, trying out various mushroom patterns, play styles, builds, items, runes, and masteries. If you want to bring Veigar to Dominion and prove others wrong, more power to you.

Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I tried making Orianna work and well...she fell short IMO. There is a line between 'I'm playing an underrated champion!' and 'This champion's effectiveness is overshadowed to the point of my being a liability to my team'.

You have to decide that point for yourself.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

05-09-2012

You're also looking at it in a vacuum. You have an AoE stun, your teammates have stuns and slows - teamfights happen, and auto-attackers need to stand still to deal damage. They can eat your W, or stop auto-attacking to dodge it. Either way you've done something useful.

Also, teamfights in general along with chasing and fleeing result in very predictable movement patterns that make landing shots like that easier. It's why skillshots are viable in the first place.

I'm not at all trying to make the argument that Viegar is going to become the best caster and send a ripple through the community that dramatically alters the meta. I'm just thinking that a well-played Viegar is just as viable as any other caster in the same class.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
Also, teamfights in general along with chasing and fleeing result in very predictable movement patterns that make landing shots like that easier. It's why skillshots are viable in the first place.
With all the MS boost players run in builds, speed shrines, and items, you feel that you can land a 900 range spell with a 1.2 s delay on a person running?

Screeny or it didn't happen.


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Hékate

Senior Member

05-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardTS View Post
To both of you about the W, you are looking from the perspective of the player of Veigar.

"Hey, I can land my W!"

Yes you can.

But look at it the opposite way. If you were letting a Veigar hit you with his W outside of hard CC, would it be due to his superior play? Or you just not reacting fast enough or not paying attention?

I mean, come on, its a 1.2s delayed bright light beam that shines down and makes a loud noise. So much easier to dodge than Kog's. 900 units doesn't give Veigar enough breathing room to properly lead targets with it. Hell, when I play Kog his 1450 seems short.

I know if I get hit by it I call myself dumb. Me being dumb doesn't make the Veigar good.


And to the above about AP Teemo. I've clocked in about 50 games with AP Teemo, trying out various builds, items, runes, and masteries. If you want to bring Veigar to Dominion and prove others wrong, more power to you.

Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I tried making Orianna work and well...she fell short IMO.
Like I said, I don't know if Veigar is good or strong, but you still shouldn't discount a champ because a skillshot is harder to land. Gragas is one of my mains and you can see his barrels rolling towards you a mile away, but I still hit. If range is an issue, then you need to build for survivability.

The majority of my champs are skillshot champs so I've become pretty good at juking them as well, but every once in a while I still into that one ******* nidalee that lands a good chunk of her spears and makes me rage. Just because most nidalees are useless doesn't mean the champ is broken, same applies to veigar.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

05-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardTS View Post
With all the MS boost players run in builds, speed shrines, and items, you feel that you can land a 900 range spell with a 1.2 s delay on a person running?

Screeny or it didn't happen.
If they're running at or away from me, yes. If they're standing around waiting to juke a skillshot - then, no, of course not. *shrug* I'll have to give it a shot. I was impressed with AP Teemo, so this could be fun. Or not...

EDIT: Meh. I'll shut up. Played two bot games with him, and... eh. He's really not even much fun to play, and the amount of effort you'd have to put in isn't worth what you'd actually get out of it. The AoE stun is fantastic, sure, but I could play Alistar for that. His R does do 'tons of damage', but I'd rather do slightly less damage, consistently, than one big burst every minute or so. Just me, I suppose.