Tryndamere on Dominion

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Redenbacher

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Ottyssey, do you think the Diablo III community of equal or larger size is going to be much better?

At least if you play PvE with friends or solo, you'll be able to escape that... however if you hope to step foot in the competitive PvP and don't keep yourself relegated to your own little bubble of approved equals (as I had to in WC3), you'll find that every online community has its share of cancer. Anonymity = Rampant Troll-ery.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
Now the bad. The game has been homogenized in to a set of skills. Auto-attack modifiers, offensive, and defensive. That's it. If you can play a Barbarian, you can play the Demon Hunter, and you can play the Witch Doctor, and the Monk in pretty much the same fashion. Further, the auto-attack modifiers had pretty much a single dominant ability and others that were 'meh'. Instead of four unique and distinctive characters, the only thing really separating them were particle effects and audio.

There are no more skill trees. No more points to allocate as you see fit for YOUR character. It's all automatic, and since skills are the only thing tied to specific levels, leveling up significantly loses importance... especially those levels where you don't unlock any abilities or runes. (Yay! Full health and mana! *click click click...*) Also, as a result of the removal of skill trees, and the implementation of infinite access to all abilities, swappable on the fly, there are no unique builds. Nothing that separates Monk A from Monk B, outside of the hope that there isn't one dominant set of abilities. Every character has been reduced to a rack with which you store armor and weapons. There really is no healthy customization system in place here.
They talked a lot about this and I kind of agree with the stance they took on it. While D2 had skill trees, this was only the illusion of choice and customization. Sure there were exceptions, but generally your Sorc's were Frozen Orb, Amazons were Homing Shot/Multi Shot, Assassins were Trap, Paladins were Hammer or Zeal, and Necro's were Poision and sucked.

While there is nothing separating Monk A from Monk B, A and B will be played different guaranteed. We really don't know the depth they are going to have in the gear system yet. For all we know, a Monk with a certain spirit generation ability's best in slot chest will be different from another.

As it stands there are 6 skill slots with about 3-5 unique skills in each with 4-6 runes each. For a bit of math , that means that each class will have 120 unique skills or 20 unique skills per skill slot (That comes out to 3.2 million skill combinations). The runes really do change the skill that much. Some more than others granted, but trying to be general.

Will gear be the only real separator? Yes. But I guarantee you will build your monk different from me.

Quote:
Also, real-money AH, where Blizzard takes a cut for the listing, and a percentage of the sale, while limiting the posting time to 48 hours. Some might say, "Wow! I can make an income off of this!" May be, but there's no point in listing anything that isn't end-game, max-level and worth buying. At which point, any player can grind to 60, dump their money on the best set of gear, and hop in to PvP. Not really an environment I want to be a part of, especially after having the privilege of playing a game like LoL where you can not buy all the best stuff with cash. Even with IP boosts, you still have to put a significant amount of time in to real PvP to get the runes you need to compete.
This was something that a few of my friends hated. I guess it really comes down to what you will be getting out of D3.

For me, I won't be buying off the RMAH. Neither will my friends. And if we're exclusively playing with the 3-5 of us, I see no reason to worry about it. While I will like to show off my leetness that I earned to others, if they want to buy it, to each his own.

A more serious PvP or PvE system would bring rise to more problems with a RMAH, but I don't think D3 will be either of these. At least it wont for me. I raided in WoW, I PvP'd here. D3 will just be a fast paced fun game that have a lot of 'boom!'s and flashing lights


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Ottyssey

Junior Member

05-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
Ottyssey, do you think the Diablo III community of equal or larger size is going to be much better?

At least if you play PvE with friends or solo, you'll be able to escape that... however if you hope to step foot in the competitive PvP and don't keep yourself relegated to your own little bubble of approved equals (as I had to in WC3), you'll find that every online community has its share of cancer. Anonymity = Rampant Troll-ery.
Yes. I do think it will be better. I don't believe trolling is a function of community size. Small games have trolls, large games have trolls. I'm more concerned with the impact trolling has on me, and this seems to be a function of how players interact.

Some examples:

TF2: Thousands of servers, no penalty for leaving, "flat playing experience" (I'll define this as the way the game feels at minute one is similar to how it feels at minute 30... compare to LOL where you gain levels and items and the focus of the game changes significantly from individual farming/effort to teamfighting.)

L4D: Thousands of servers, no penalty for leaving, varied playing experience (much more rewarding to survive an entire intense campaign vs only surviving it for 5 minutes... just IMO, this isn't a scientific measure)

LOL: Thousands of "servers" (games), leaving penalty, varied playing experience

Trolling has no effect on me in TF2. If the trolling is bad enough to alter my experience, I can leave. Leaving doesn't cost me anything.

Trolling in L4D costs me more than TF2. I don't get to experience the whole campaign, I don't get as much satisfaction. Instead of costing nothing, now trolls are forcing me to lose out on the experience.

Trolling in LOL costs me more than L4D. I can't leave because I'll be penalized. And trolls are ruining the experience of the game I'm stuck in.

Maybe all trolls are created equal, but their impact on me is more damaging in LOL than in TF2, so I dislike them more here. However, I think it's more than that. I think trolls get more satisfaction the more their actions cost other players.

I don't mind trolling in 1v1 competitive scenes like SC2 for example. If you can walk the walk and chose to talk, that's your business but it has no effect on me.

Trolling in WOW Arena was nonexistent as far as I was concerned. If the other team throws the game, you just move on and play another. Again, chat trolling doesn't bother me.

I imagine D3 PVP will be similar to WOW Arena, but I haven't really heard many details. At any rate, I do believe there are forces at work that makes trolling worse in LOL other than community size.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Right, the old skill trees had one 'best' combination - but that doesn't mean you had to use it unless you were playing competitively. I could still make a melee sorceress if I really wanted to, just for fun, get that many more hours out of the game doing so.

The builds will be different... but as far as I could tell, it's only the illusion of difference. There will be different flashy effects, but the play style will be pretty much the same. That bothers me. In D2, an assassin that went traps was very different from an assassin that went Martial Arts. I mean, the play styles were completely different. Sure, one build might not be competitive, but for PvE with friends, it was fun.

Like you, I wouldn't buy off the RMAH either... I think it's a waste of cash. If you're playing exclusively with friends, then yea, it won't bother you. My point is directed at the people leaving one competitive PvP game (LoL) with the hopes that another will replace it (D3). You're entering an environment where players can very well buy power, and PvE just doesn't scratch the itch that PvP does. The dynamic nature of human thought will never rival that of programmed AI... not in the near future anyway.

@Ottyssey: That's fair reasoning, can't really argue with that. It'll really come down to how they handle PvP environment. I think team dependence in general plays a large role in how trolling affects the individual. If PvP is largely team-independent, or you're just with friends, it won't be so bad. It's getting locked in to a bad game with teammates you must rely on to have fun.


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
Thanks for the insight, folks. I'll share my take on it now:

I've played the beta, and I've been actively following the news. I'm a Diablo II fan, for very specific reasons, and I was very excited about Diablo III... until I played the beta.

First, the good things. The game looks pretty good, and it plays really nicely. Combat is fluid and fast, and is definitely reminiscent of Diablo II and carving through huge hordes of enemies. The voice acting is decent, the story is alright, and the music/audio is good. That's about where the good things end.

Now the bad. The game has been homogenized in to a set of skills. Auto-attack modifiers, offensive, and defensive. That's it. If you can play a Barbarian, you can play the Demon Hunter, and you can play the Witch Doctor, and the Monk in pretty much the same fashion. Further, the auto-attack modifiers had pretty much a single dominant ability and others that were 'meh'. Instead of four unique and distinctive characters, the only thing really separating them were particle effects and audio.

There are no more skill trees. No more points to allocate as you see fit for YOUR character. It's all automatic, and since skills are the only thing tied to specific levels, leveling up significantly loses importance... especially those levels where you don't unlock any abilities or runes. (Yay! Full health and mana! *click click click...*) Also, as a result of the removal of skill trees, and the implementation of infinite access to all abilities, swappable on the fly, there are no unique builds. Nothing that separates Monk A from Monk B, outside of the hope that there isn't one dominant set of abilities. Every character has been reduced to a rack with which you store armor and weapons. There really is no healthy customization system in place here.

All of your abilities are unlocked in the mid-30s, but there are 60 levels. So all you're really doing is gathering gear at that point, and maybe unlocking a new rune that simply modifies an old ability... woop de doo.

Also, real-money AH, where Blizzard takes a cut for the listing, and a percentage of the sale, while limiting the posting time to 48 hours. Some might say, "Wow! I can make an income off of this!" May be, but there's no point in listing anything that isn't end-game, max-level and worth buying. At which point, any player can grind to 60, dump their money on the best set of gear, and hop in to PvP. Not really an environment I want to be a part of, especially after having the privilege of playing a game like LoL where you can not buy all the best stuff with cash. Even with IP boosts, you still have to put a significant amount of time in to real PvP to get the runes you need to compete.

So, I see all of these posts inferring there will be some kind of mass exodus from LoL to play Diablo III, but what's the hitch that keeps players sinking time in to it? Unlike Diablo II, there are not an infinite number of builds and playstyles, and no incentive to roll multiples of the same character. My expectation is everyone is going to realize this the hard way, get bored fast, and guess where they're going to go? Right back to LoL.

Blizzard homogenized/simplified the hell out of WoW too, and the friends I have that used to play, quit as a result. You say Blizzard has this great track record of genre-changing games - which they do. I love(d) Blizzard, I just don't believe that this is the same Blizzard any more. Their priorities have changed, and all signs point to a significant lack of insight in to the fans they've gained over the years with the Diablo, Starcraft, and Warcraft franchises.

I think I'll be skipping Diablo III in favor of the cheaper, and more interesting Torchlight 2, because I know I have any number of builds to use and replay-ability is significantly more encouraged. Oh, and a vibrant and supported modding community.

@KSHarrison - I wanted to understand others' thoughts before I gave my own, to avoid putting anyone on the defensive to encourage an honest opinion.
Well, these are definitely interesting points you raise. A lot of the questions can only be answered once the game is out, but I will be on the look out to see how your points develop. I actually don't think there will be a mass exodus to D3. A lot of people have too much invested in LoL to leave it readily.

Edit: Actually others have already raised my point, so I'll just say:

An AH isn't necessarily a whole lot different than LoL, except that instead of buying directly from the company, you are purchasing stuff from other players. I can't speak about making a living off the AH, but I know that in LoL spending money gives you a huge advantage. I have taken advantage of several good deals through the past year to acquire so far 5 champs for $10. The IP you spend on champs is IP not spent on runes. If I had bought all of the champs I own now with RP, I would easily have another 20k IP at least to throw towards runes, and I still wouldn't have all the champs I need. Not to mention that while you can't buy runes, you can buy rune pages, which are arguably the most expensive aspect of rune buying if you only pay with IP.

Players who spend a hundred dollars on LoL, take the time to get to level 30, will have enough IP for whatever runes they need, and they can essentially bypass a thousand games or more this way. In D3, I don't think a full end game set of quality rare/unique equipment will be sold for a whole lot less than $100 to be honest, unless duping occurs again, and that is only for one class, whereas a decked out LoL account has everything you need already there.

While WoW may have fallen off, there's no doubt that it revolutionized not only its genre, but its impact was felt in a lot of other genres as well. It's honestly a credit to WoW that it's even lasted this long. Most MMORPGS fall off within a few years. It's running on eight now. That's a record.

My only point is that the game hasn't been released yet, so the game hasn't been given a fair chance. I don't anticipate a mass exodus from LoL to D3, and I do think that money plays a large role in LoL, unless you have the time to play 42 games a day like this guy:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...147&highlight=

I'm holding out to see reviews on D3. Until then, my minds open. And I'll bet you will end up checking it out anyways


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
The builds will be different... but as far as I could tell, it's only the illusion of difference. There will be different flashy effects, but the play style will be pretty much the same. That bothers me. In D2, an assassin that went traps was very different from an assassin that went Martial Arts. I mean, the play styles were completely different. Sure, one build might not be competitive, but for PvE with friends, it was fun.
You find the rune system too thin? I mean, compared to Tera Online, D3's rune system is a godsend.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

05-04-2012

All other issues aside, my primary point of contention is the lack of customization and character development. My favorite part of any hack-n-slash RPG is character development, and Diablo 3 has systematically removed that aspect entirely.

As far as money involvement goes - I didn't buy any IP boosts and bought a standard set of runes for all champions I need. You only have to play 42 games/day if you are so impatient that you need to get those runes in days rather than months. Patience is cheap, and there's really no opportunity cost for waiting... unless the group you're playing with is throwing money at their monitors and you're the weak link in the team because of it... Runes also don't give that much of an advantage. Not compared to the gear you buy in-game, anyway. A full set of the best possible gear in Diablo III is a huge advantage, because you're defined entirely by your gear... it's the only differentiator, the only mark of power outside of skill.

@Grignard: I haven't played Tera, so I can't say. However compared to having a real skill tree that dramatically alters play style, like it's predecessor and other games in the genre (torchlight), yes. I find it too thin.

I'd love to be proven wrong once it's released, mind you... I WANT to love Diablo III because of the franchise alone. However, I'm not going to put blinders on because of it and ignore the glaring flaws I currently see.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-04-2012

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Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
@Grignard: I haven't played Tera, so I can't say. However compared to having a real skill tree that dramatically alters play style, like it's predecessor and other games in the genre (torchlight), yes. I find it too thin.
Well, the last two MMOs I've played (Aion and Tera) have terrible customization. Aion had the Stigma system which was like skill only talent trees, but only 1-2 were good and the trees only had 6 or 7 skills.

Tera has a rune system exactly like D3 (runes modifying skills), but its filled with "X does 10% more damage", "X costs 15% less mana" rather than the actual alteration D3's runes provide.


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Hékate

Senior Member

05-04-2012

I haven't played the beta, but I've played with the skill calculator on the website and a lot of the options look like they provide customization. Even if the customization is on the same level as D2, I will be excited since the PVP there was amazingly fun. I did not play typical builds either and rarely lost on my plague/lighting javazon or my fire sorc (even destroyed on FW/hydra sorc before FW got nerfed).


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Icegoten

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

05-04-2012

He is OP.