Dear Riot. Why You Dislike Soraka?

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Goumindong

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Senior Member

05-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Furthermore, Soraka and her carry partner incur very little advantage from being aggressive in that manner. Unless the carry is self-sufficient in being able to guarantee a kill for himself - Soraka basically doesn't enable much besides a constant pressure-game to harass the opponent back while cancelling mistakes made for by her lane. Neither can Soraka capitalize on a mistake the opponent has made - which basically leads to a lot of superflous damage floating around doing a lot of nothing - Eventually players simply play passive because there's no point to trading damage.
Soraka and her carry partner incur every advantage from being aggressive in this manner. It prevents the other enemy carry from scaling. It gets your carry ahead and in a position where Soraka's poor lategame is less important due to your carry having more farm. Soraka cannot actively capitalize on a mistake by stunning or slowing an enemy, but she can allow her carry to push hard, get in front of creeps, take objectives while going back less, and tower dive by providing health and armor and targeted silences [or mana]

Soraka is so directly weak in the lategame compared to someone like Janna [who has much more potential to simply win the game for your team with a well timed ult] or Lulu, or any of the supports which can provide CC to either force an engagement/pick someone off or win one; she needs to get her carry ahead early in order to provide high probabilities of winning. If Soraka's carry goes even in farm when the other team has a different support, then Soraka is losing.

If you're playing Soraka and you aren't playing wither either a carry that is going to scale obscenely into the lategame and can harass to keep the enemy away from creeps, or you're playing with a carry who isn't able to secure kills by him/herself then you've got a problem right out of the gate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Is there a good way to play against Soraka outside of forcing cooldowns?
In general, yes. Pressure her and her lanemate harder than they can pressure you. If we can't say "draw the heal then pressure" then in general you want to pressure onto soraka if she is targetable and the AD carry if not. But really, in high level play drawing cooldowns should be pretty commonplace against all supports and carries. If you're not doing it, and they are, then they're going to win the lane.

Not even soraka's heal can keep up with consistent harass into their carry. So if Soraka is hanging back behind them and feeding mana/HP you can just pressure them hard and consistently. If Soraka stays back you will eventually win this sustained trade and is she doesn't then you've forced yourself out of the stalemate. So if you bring a strong ranged support or strong harassing support then you can put enough pressure onto their carry to either force Soraka's hand, or force them away from creeps.

Then freeze the lane and hold it there as you would against any lane you successfully pushed out.

If Soraka is not behind the enemy carry then you simply kill Soraka[ideally after she heals her carry].

Other options are to simply pick a better lategame carry/support combination and let them play passive. 125 Armor is a lot, but i would rather give my carry another 65% attack speed and 15% movement speed permanently while slowing the enemy AD carries attack speed by 25% than 125 armor for a bit of the fight some MR shred, and a silence. If Soraka cannot, by way of enabling her carry, get her carry to win the lane hard, then my carry will be scarier at 20 minutes and 30 minutes and 40 minutes and if that is the case then i will win those matchups more often than I lose.

edit:
Don't play champions with lower AA ranges [because Soraka can then AA harass more easily which magnifies her power]
Don't play champions who want to get into a sustained low level harass competition[because they're going to lose]
/edit

That being said; Soraka is good in soloqueue(and especially at lower skill levels) because she can almost ensure that your carry doesn't get ruined before the team fight phase. She provides a backstop for how bad a carry can be. This means that good and coordinated carries can still win, but bad ones do not fail as hard as they would otherwise. So while she is not as strong herself as other supports are, by cutting off the lower end of the "how bad my carry can be by end game" distribution she can increase the overall expected value of what you're going into the lategame with.

Quote:
Standard Discliamer - I don't work on reworks or live balance - but from a theory standpoint I would like to find mechanics that augment this neutral bit-advantage style of play - but in a way that also encourages the player to break stalemates if they see the opportunity. It's also probably core that the Soraka player doesn't feel any more or less pressured to do something - which probably starts going into the realm of things like Enchant Weapon and Pinata (Vorpal Blade) style effects. For example of the style of effect, imagine if Starcall had a passive that said: "Whenever you cast a spell on an ally, his next attack does a single-target variant of starcall on your target.' So you astral blessing your allied Ashe, or whatever, and then her next autoattack can then launch a starcall attack at your opponent.
So in general, in a game balance sense, rather than a character "feel" sense, its bad to design a character with both

a: Play that benefits from stalemates
b: Ways to capitalize and create advantages


The reason for this is that it almost entirely forces the enemies hand. In general, it is true that methods to capitalize and create advantages are also ways to punish mistakes. Engaging into Lulu is harder than engaging into Soraka, not because Soraka will heal the damage, but because Lulu will kill you with the same tools that Lulu will use to kill you when she chose the engagement. So if we give a champion that wants to hold and farm the tools to create and prosecute advantages then we're also giving them the ways to defend against the aggression needed to prevent them from holding and farming. This give all of the chips to one team at the start, you can't win by simply not making mistakes, and if you do, you get creamed.

I don't actually think that Soraka benefits as much from stalemates compared to a lot of other supports though, she simply enables your team to wait out things longer than the other team. For a stalemate to really work the other team can't be getting stronger over time than yours. And while Soraka can enable her team to siege a turret while receiving poke for longer than other supports, and while she can ensure that her carry will win a low level harass fight in bottom lane as levels and gold accrue the other team is probably getting stronger.

Now we might say that Soraka's team has smartly chosen a comp that this is not true in, with Soraka enabling the rest of her late game scaling team, but again, since Soraka doesn't contribute to it choosing her actively reduces the strength of your composition in the area you're pushing for and it also requires that your other lanes choose later game champions than their opponents which may end up problematic [Unless you're Dignitas and you've got Lulu and Soraka and Janna] This seems like a reasonable tradeoff.

In terms of making Soraka seem active and fun? Not sure, i don't think you can really change her to be active without either severely overpowering her compared to other supports or changing her style of play completely.

That being said you could pull the passive MR bonus and stick it on Starcall. Have it self/ally shred when Starcall was on CD and then have it be flatly applied to enemies who had been effected by a starcall within the last x seconds[similar to Taric's Shatter]. Then give her some sort of auto attack passive that was flashy and cool without being terribly effective


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EspeonageTieler

Senior Member

05-09-2012

man shes still an amazing champi wonder how op she was when she first came out


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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

05-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosBloodterfly View Post
Most of those games usually don't have a laning phase, where it can turn into an attrition fight. And a lot of them are also mainly PvE.
You also forget that pretty much ALL those games, the healers who do big ol' healing have to sit and cast it. Which leads them open to interruption and/or someone getting a healing reduction ability up on the person before the heal is cast.


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Stereo Mime

Senior Member

05-10-2012

I have truly never understood all the complaints against soraka. Whenever I am laning against her, all I know is I need to play extra safe and just farm, or else play aggressive early. Worst thing is trying to throw occasional harass and expect to outlast them. The other thing I find funny is in the first 5 levels, if you level heal more than anything else, and are fighting aggressive lane opponents, you are going to go oom, period. If you leave heal at level 1 and they are playing aggressively, you will not be able to keep up with heals. I think the main people that are really affected by her lane are all these carry/support lanes who insist on passively farming while only occasionally trading (probably when the soraka lane makes an engagement), and ends up getting out sustained hard. Its their fault, and it is by no means anti fun. I find getting blitz grabbed, or alistar comboed far more "anti fun" whatever the hell that means.

And in any case, if we are whining about sustain, wtf is with the health pots. They should just be removed. They promote passive play... der der derrrr


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FinalValkyrie

Senior Member

05-10-2012

I think people underestimate how good Soraka is in a Double AP double WotA team.


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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

05-10-2012

Oh ya, I have to ask, why is it Soraka helping to turn bottom lane into a farmfest/stalemate is a problem, but cho'gath up top does the EXACT SAME THING (seriously, find me a champion who can bully Cho'gath outta lane, a good one that is, no one that's who) and that's ok. And no, I'm not saying change Cho'gath. I'm saying that a lane where they tend to give up something huge (in terms of Cho'Gath he really has very little in terms of damage until 6 and even then it's not enough to kill anyone playing well on his own and in terms of Soraka, everything already mentioned with damage and hard cc and escapes, etc) to get something like this seems fine to me.

Especially because Soraka lanes can be countered with healing reduction abilities/items as well as smarter play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinalValkyrie View Post
I think people underestimate how good Soraka is in a Double AP double WotA team.
Problem with WoTA, not with Soraka. Imo they shoulda removed the stacking Aura **** a long time ago and left the price/build order of it the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krebstar View Post
Yep.

Just my thoughts, but AD carries are needed because they're the only class to scale hard enough to counter bruisers/tanks. However, AD carries need items to do this, and have to contend for CS in a busier 2v2 lane than the 1v1 lanes mid and top get. While AD can mix it up and play for kills, if they get their cs too slowly, they're just going to fall behind the other lanes anyway. While this may still be fine for the balance of your AD vs their AD, it might not mean much if your AD can't keep up to deal decent damage in fights.
Bruisers/Tanks are silly to ***** about. Bruisers are strong mid game, and just ok late game. There's no bruiser that's REALLY strong late game (assuming the game is actually even and not one side getting stomped and thus the bruiser is fed as hell).

As for tanks. Not sure how long you've been here, but Riot has effectively killed tanks in the old way tanks were. That is, massive amounts of damage could be reduced by being a tank and building tank items. They made it so damage items scaled exponentially better than tank items and for good reason tbh, there needs to be damage to end the game after all. I just think their AD items have gone a bit too far. AD items are a problem atm and give way too much and every AD relies entirely on their items. If they changed it up so that AD items were nerfed a bit in exchange for the AD Carries getting maybe a bit more outta leveling or their abilities maybe that'd be better.

Hard to say atm. But I've been saying for awhile now that AD carries are what make the bottom lane (and all game) problematic now. Nothing to do with supports.


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Urbaknight

Senior Member

07-05-2012

Bump


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PROppy

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is exactly right. I'd never challenge that there's a set of players who enjoy the healing paradigm as presented by plenty of other games, or that this isn't fun for support...my problem with dedicated healers is that to enable this type of gameplay, you make the rest of the game worse by allowing it. Xyph's post here explains some of the more compelling reasons.

Support can mean a lot of things that aren't healing, and I think it has to in most cases to keep LoL healthy.
8 months later Soraka is barely picked by anyone and considered one of the most useless supports in the game.

I called the nerf for what it was and time proved it to be true. Riot covered it with fancy talk of balancing and reworks and how antifun she was to play against. Well now you rarely see her played, she lost her position due to all the nerfs, Gg.

In the future riot, there are other ways to fix a champion than to nerf them into oblivion.


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PROppy

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Sad bump


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Crimson5pheonix

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Oh silly Morello and his hatred of healers :\ To be fair, I still occasionally use Soraka. Mostly if I have Varus or Corki and can harass with unlimited mana, because I certainly won't be doing anything in lane except tossing the occasional banana for 3 gold.