A Guide To Tribunal

First Riot Post
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DebosBike

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Senior Member

06-02-2012

This thread is taking too long to read, I'm just gonna hit punish and move onto the next one :P


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Byerley

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyOmega View Post
Cases stop becoming borderline after the warning. If a player continues to violate the Summoner's Code after the warning, then their punishment gets worse.

Why? How would you treat a violator who fails repeatedly to heed warnings about breaking the rules? They can either grow up or get some professional help to stop breaking the rules.

We are not here to hold their hands and form relationships with them. We are here to remind them that there are rules that they agreed to when they signed up for the game. If they choose to ignore those rules or ignore their own deficiencies even after getting warned, then they deserve their harsher punishment.
I suppose it was wrong of me to expect you to grasp a subtle point, but you certainly have missed it (and with gusto!). I guess I'll try to be more clear:

1. The tribunal supposedly works because people vote punish when they (personally) think the case is deserving. By injecting your own personal bias into a guide that's supposed to be impartial, you undermine that. What's more, Riot already outlines (much better than yourself) what they as a company think judges should be looking at, and they're nice enough to make judges look at it every time they sign in to the tribunal.

2. The Summoner's code is a loose set of moral guidelines because (among other reasons) they expect people to judge based on gut feelings. By encouraging people not to feel any guilt over punishing their fellow summoners, you sound like a sadist and you encourage judges to be overly harsh.


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NecroticBinder

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Shrinking Violet, trolling as usual.


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
I suppose it was wrong of me to expect you to grasp a subtle point, but you certainly have missed it (and with gusto!). I guess I'll try to be more clear:

1. The tribunal supposedly works because people vote punish when they (personally) think the case is deserving. By injecting your own personal bias into a guide that's supposed to be impartial, you undermine that. What's more, Riot already outlines (much better than yourself) what they as a company think judges should be looking at, and they're nice enough to make judges look at it every time they sign in to the tribunal.

2. The Summoner's code is a loose set of moral guidelines because (among other reasons) they expect people to judge based on gut feelings. By encouraging people not to feel any guilt over punishing their fellow summoners, you sound like a sadist and you encourage judges to be overly harsh.

1. If you're going to argue personal bias you have to include specific examples within the entry containing the argument. A very basic rule of debate.

Here's an example of my "personal bias": I mention that one should punish for finding any instance of a racial slur. The reason being that if the violator keeps getting pardoned (meaning no warning to stop), then he/she will likely believe that it is normal to use racial slurs in the game.

Up to 9 other players will be affected in every match with that person, and if those 9 players start using racial slurs "once in a while" and keep getting pardoned, then they will keep using racial slurs; perhaps more frequently since they know they will not get punished for it.

The cycle of offensive language continues until League of Legends is considered a haven for hate language supporters. A simple warning combined with increasing levels of punishment helps to suppress this from happening, which is why you don't see hate language being complained about by offended parties for the majority of matches on the server.

2. There is no reason to feel guilty about punishing players that break the rules. Why should a Tribunal member feel guilty for punishing a violator of the rules? Especially since a first time offense or first time in a long time offense gets only a simple warning in most cases? You haven't established a reason to feel guilty. How is a warning to stop breaking the rules overly harsh? You haven't established that either.





@Metheleod:

It may seem like I'm just feeding a troll but I am also making sure younger players don't get confused by Shrinking Violet's half arguments... and because I'm on vacation.

At a certain point, Shrinking Violet may be reduced to immature name-calling devoid of actual coherent arguments. He/she is halfway there already.


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Byerley

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyOmega View Post
1. If you're going to argue personal bias you have to include specific examples within the entry containing the argument. A very basic rule of debate.
It's pretty obvious what I was referring to: "telling other people what they should punish"

It's another "very basic rule of debate" to make at least a reasonable attempt at interpreting what the other person means (it saves a lot of time). Since you seem unwilling or unable to do that -

You have an entire section named "IX. FIVE EXAMPLES OF BAN-WORTHY PLAYERS". That alone is more than enough to prove my point, but you also interlace it into the rest of the guide. For example, you say:

"You judge based on whether you find any instance of violating the Summoner's Code in any of the games shown in a case."

Which is not only biased, it's not in line with Riot's guidelines which clearly indicate that you should take context into consideration and use your own judgement as virtually everything can be considered a violation of the Summoner's Code.

Do I need to keep going or do you get it now?

Quote:
Here's an example of my "personal bias": I mention that one should punish for finding any instance of a racial slur. The reason being that if the violator keeps getting pardoned (meaning no warning to stop), then he/she will likely believe that it is normal to use racial slurs in the game.
That is another example of personal bias, yes. I don't care how right you think you are, it has no place in a "guide"

Quote:
2. There is no reason to feel guilty about punishing players that break the rules. Why should a Tribunal member feel guilty for punishing a violator of the rules? Especially since a first time offense or first time in a long time offense gets only a simple warning in most cases? You haven't established a reason to feel guilty. How is a warning to stop breaking the rules overly harsh? You haven't established that either.
You're a sadist, I get it. You don't feel any remorse when you punish your peers, I get it. Please understand that some amount of guilt is a healthy emotion in people judging others. It's a sign of empathy, which is especially useful when you're enforcing a loose set of moral guidelines rather than a specific set of rules.

Quote:
@Metheleod:
You do understand that talking **** with Methelod doesn't exactly put you in rational or respected company? I do find your completely unjustified air of smugness rather amusing though.


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Aradene

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Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
You really don't feel even a little bit guilty about telling other people what they should punish and encouraging them not to feel guilty about punishing borderline cases because it might result in a warning?
Tribunal's punish/pardon options aren't
"Punish - but only if its a warning"
"Pardon - if its going to result in any other action"

We are only being asked if the individual has done the wrong thing - not to judge their punishment. If they have done something wrong, there is no boarderline to it. If out of three cases they only have one where they have done the wrong thing - its still a punish because even though it was one case, the wrong thing was done - this is what riot tells us to do.

There is no such thing as "he sort of did the wrong thing but it wasn't really." Its like that nub who made a "why was i banned" post who said;

Quote:
It says I am banned until 2600 for exploiting in an email? I have never exploited because their isn't a way to explot LoL please fix this quick thanks

Edit: I told many riots about that exploit that people were doing for masteries and I did use it IN NORMALS bc I believed it was BS


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
It's pretty obvious what I was referring to: "telling other people what they should punish"

It's another "very basic rule of debate" to make at least a reasonable attempt at interpreting what the other person means (it saves a lot of time). Since you seem unwilling or unable to do that -
Obvious to you, not obvious to everyone else wondering which part you're talking about.

It saves more time to actually give the examples for your argument when referring to them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
You have an entire section named "IX. FIVE EXAMPLES OF BAN-WORTHY PLAYERS". That alone is more than enough to prove my point, but you also interlace it into the rest of the guide. For example, you say:
You have yet to establish why the five examples are not accurate examples of ban-worthy players. Until you do so, that is not personal bias, it is an impartial (and humorous) depiction of what is commonly observed to be types of players likely to be reported and punished.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
"You judge based on whether you find any instance of violating the Summoner's Code in any of the games shown in a case."

Which is not only biased, it's not in line with Riot's guidelines which clearly indicate that you should take context into consideration and use your own judgement as virtually everything can be considered a violation of the Summoner's Code.
Using a racial slur or repeatedly insulting your own team mates is hard to mistake out of context. I gave explanations of how to recognize the different offenses but clearly you have not read the entire guide, looking only at a glance what you want to believe in your own mind.

If you believe virtually everything can be considered a violation of the Summoner's Code, then perhaps you have either not read it or lack an understanding of it.

Also, you have yet to establish HOW everything can be considered a violation of the Summoner's Code.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
That is another example of personal bias, yes. I don't care how right you think you are, it has no place in a "guide"
What I espouse in my writings is called "common sense". That always has a place in a guide.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
You're a sadist, I get it. You don't feel any remorse when you punish your peers, I get it. Please understand that some amount of guilt is a healthy emotion in people judging others. It's a sign of empathy, which is especially useful when you're enforcing a loose set of moral guidelines rather than a specific set of rules.
If you're going to use an insult, at least learn what it means. To be a sadist is to obtain pleasure from inflicting pain on others. I don't feel guilty punishing my "peers" if they have behaved in a way that deserves it but I'm not happy about it either. I feel disappointment and disgust if anything. People need to learn how to behave maturely and bad behavior such as insulting others without grounds for the insult shows that a person is not quite there yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
You do understand that talking **** with Methelod doesn't exactly put you in rational or respected company? I do find your completely unjustified air of smugness rather amusing though.
Your lack of legitimate arguments justifies whatever smugness one might see on my part.


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Byerley

Senior Member

06-02-2012

My word these are tired arguments. You'll have to forgive me if I don't stamp out all the clear faults in advocating a strict interpretation of the Summoner's Code; my stupidity tolerance just isn't what it used to be these day.

Do be advised that I'll be reporting your thread if you continue to bump it without new content as that's a clear violation of Riot's forum policy.


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
My word these are tired arguments. You'll have to forgive me if I don't stamp out all the clear faults in advocating a strict interpretation of the Summoner's Code; my stupidity tolerance just isn't what it used to be these day.

Do be advised that I'll be reporting your thread if you continue to bump it without new content as that's a clear violation of Riot's forum policy.
Just as predicted, insulting devoid of coherent arguments.

Considering how much content has been included, and how much more content can be added, you can expect this thread up and open for a VERY long time.


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Aradene

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Personally I think this thread is long overdue and makes a great and valuable contribution to this forum.

I know I'll be keeping an eye on this thread and be reccommending it for a Sticky. The OP has taken contributions, suggestions, and corrections in their stride and responded well to CONSTRUCTIVE Criticism. Its just a shame that trolls felt the need to infest it.

At the end of the day you vote based on what you believe is right or wrong, its all open to interpretation and such interpretation is what makes the Tribunal a good system. No one is demanding that everyone agrees, and this thread has done nothing to suggest the OP is making any such suggestion.The examples presented are extreme cases purely to demonstrate.